How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

It is beyond me why anyone would holiday there.

@doublehalo

In the same way that most people boycotted South Africa during apartheid we should of course be boycotting countries where women and other marginalized groups are treated so badly.

It's a no brainer right? Except to selfish arseholes who care nothing for others.

We’d have to boycott so many countries that this wouldn’t be feasible.

We can’t not buy things from China, for example, and they have awful human rights.

The UK is a small island and we can’t make/grow everything we need.

I would never go for these reasons.

I wouldn't stop off on the way to Oz either.

It does make me think less of people who go but I usually don't say anything to them directly.

[quote onlychildandhamster]@LexMitior

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/the-real-roots-of-sexism-in-the-middle-east-its-not-islam-race-or-hate/256362/

'Some of the most important architects of institutionalized Arab misogyny weren't actually Arab. They were Turkish or, as they called themselves at the time, Ottoman British, and French. These foreigners ruled Arabs for centuries, twisting the cultures to accommodate their dominance. One of their favorite tricks was to buy the submission of men by offering them absolute power over women. The foreign overlords ruled the public sphere, local men ruled the private sphere, and women got nothing; academic Deniz Kandiyoti called this the "patriarchal bargain." Colonial powers employed it in the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and in South Asia, promoting misogynist ideas and misogynist men who might have otherwise stayed on the margins, slowly but surely ingraining these ideas into the societies.'[/quote]
Okay... but of course it is a positive choice to carry on with these attitudes, and I am sure that the Arabs can make up their own minds now. You don't have to follow the aspects of imperialism which the source says fostered oppression.

I'm pretty happy with how western values exist in the UK now. And while I don't expect everywhere to be the same, I would not go to Dubai with its semi authorised slavery. That is worse than here by a long way.

That’s a different conversation. Yes I can see that being in a country with all the trappings of consumerism but an Islamic infrastructure must be pleasant if you are Muslim, absolutely . It’s the fact that the west is held to different standards, by Muslims, when it comes to treatment of Muslims, that irks me.

I think the things I described (being able to eat freely, not being worried about racist attacks or being made to feel 'other' because you wear hijab etc, goes beyond 'trappings of consumerism'.

If you've always had those things, you probably wouldn't understand.

Again, I'm not advocating for Dubai, I'm just saying I do understand its popularity with many.

@Bouncealot as far as I know, no other countries rely as much as the gulf states on foreign labour to do all the essential jobs . UAE gets to do that because of the oil money- its basically free money which they can freely distribute to their citizens to sit on their bums while getting the foreigners to do the hard work. All the hotels and fancy buildings were built on the back of oil money.

The sooner we stop relying on them for oil and can use renewables, the better.

I think some people are just ignorant
It always makes me laugh when people consider that anyone who doesn't agree with them are deemed ignorant.

Ultimately people living there might be ignorant of some aspects of life there but very knowledgeable if others.

People who don't live there might gain some educated knowledge depending on the sources of their claim, but can't be fully knowledgeable of actual life there.

Whoever is more ignorant...or maybe just different perspectives but to gasp this, you have to be of a tolerant nature!

Have you ever worked with woman from the EAU or been friends with anyone from there?

I think the western perception is often very different from reality

If you are in a city, I can guarantee that there are illiterate, underfed, child slaves working now this moment, with no medical care, no contact with their families and no hope for the future, less than 10 miles from you

Rowena, who do these slaves work for? Are their ‘employers’ ever arrested and taken to court?

@Cam77, they aren't homeless. Whilst they work in Hong Kong they live in cages (it's cheap & safe, they can lock their own cages) then go home to their families for the holidays.

BluebelllsRosesDaffodills

We’d have to boycott so many countries that this wouldn’t be feasible.
We can’t not buy things from China, for example, and they have awful human rights.
The UK is a small island and we can’t make/grow everything we need

You're being a bit silly. Just do your best.

Don't fly to China for you holidays. Don't fly to Dubai for your holidays. Don't buy so much plastic shite from China etc etc etc.

Just do your bit.

@doublehalo

BluebelllsRosesDaffodills

We’d have to boycott so many countries that this wouldn’t be feasible.
We can’t not buy things from China, for example, and they have awful human rights.
The UK is a small island and we can’t make/grow everything we need

You're being a bit silly. Just do your best.

Don't fly to China for you holidays. Don't fly to Dubai for your holidays. Don't buy so much plastic shite from China etc etc etc.

Just do your bit.

This 👏

Those who disagree what are your thoughts on the ruler of Dubai holding his own daughters under house arrest? Are you really of the opinion that shouldn't deter holiday makers?

Every continent or island has a bloody history of wars, colonialism, of one group of locals superior (religious or gender or political etc) to another.

When choosing where to spend your money, there's a difference between history and the present. France, like Britain, has a horrifying colonial past, but if I go to France, that money isn't going to go towards the past colonisation of Algeria/Senegal/etc

I went for an event with work once. I was horrified from the moment I got out of the airport. I hadnt reliased the level of divide. Just the journey to the hotel made me know I would never go back. The way staff are spoken to is disgusting.
A friend has a big birthday coming up and offered to pay for us both to have a week there. I turned it down. She was less than impressed

A male friend of mine used to go to Dubai every year. It t was odd because most of his holidays involved hill walking and mountains. It affect my opinion of him. I think most of the middle east is best avoided for holidaying.

You should not just judge women for doing so, but men as well.

@maddy68

Have you ever worked with woman from the EAU or been friends with anyone from there? I think the western perception is often very different from reality

Because they grew up with it. Perceptions do differ, yes.

Many will dress and behave differently when they are there or in a western country. That should tell you something.

I’ve never had a desire to go there - people holiday there as it’s all about luxury, but at what price?
It all seems so fake to me too!

@SharonasCorona

That’s a different conversation. Yes I can see that being in a country with all the trappings of consumerism but an Islamic infrastructure must be pleasant if you are Muslim, absolutely . It’s the fact that the west is held to different standards, by Muslims, when it comes to treatment of Muslims, that irks me.

I think the things I described (being able to eat freely, not being worried about racist attacks or being made to feel 'other' because you wear hijab etc, goes beyond 'trappings of consumerism'.

If you've always had those things, you probably wouldn't understand.

Again, I'm not advocating for Dubai, I'm just saying I do understand its popularity with many.

I didn’t say it was the trappings of consumerism that attracted Muslim holidaymakers, I said it was consumerism in an Islamic infrastructure. Essentially I agree you and I can see why it would be more comfortable to holiday within a culture similar to yours. Funnily enough I grew up in a Muslim country ( not the UAE) and as a western girl I frequently had to deal with sexual harassment and aggression. So I do know what it is like to feel unsafe in the country you live in. I know I counted the days until we went off to france every summer.

@whataboutbob sexual harassment is not unique to Western women or Muslim countries, it's a world wide issue and doesn't justify racism in the West.

Having lived in both cultures I can say that for me at least, sexual harassment in Muslim countries I lived in or visited was much more frequent, intense and intimidating than anything I experienced in Europe.

I believe it is impossible and dare I suggest not necessarily right to make judgements on overseas geographies, cultures and faiths based on a western democratic viewpoint and standards for benchmarking.

Dubai, the UAE and the surrounding Islamic Gulf nations cannot be judged according to our Anglo beliefs and moral compass. They believe their cultural values, religious beliefs and governance are appropriate and not improper nor need amendment. From an outside western perspective it would appear that equality is not a recognised concept. The gender divisions (though naturally wrong from a humanity equality angle) is what this region, culture and faith see as befitting their societies.

We all know this as a part of the traditional religious cultural obligations. In the UK we have similar issues in many concentrated quarters of metropolitan cities with peoples with similar beliefs and expectations. These peoples include younger generations born here from overseas heritage backgrounds still retaining these traditional beliefs and gender expectations. This is a sensitive issue that is found not far from you. Issues include arrangements for marriage and in the extreme a sense of belonging to certain banned organised groups. Some of whom famously ventured to conflict zones while under age. Freedoms and full human rights simply differ as a concept globally and even found dotted amongst western nations. It's all very complex and no quick and easy answers.

So in essence where do you start as there are countless issues everywhere you care to look. Near and far. The UAE is a former UK protectorate (if my brief history education is not mistaken) as to is much of the surrounding fossil energy states. The UK is essentially UAE strategic partner as much is dependent on British expertise from military assistance and armament to all other business sectors. In recent years the Chinese and South Koreans have taken a share of the trade and involvement in many mega projects. The tourism sector will not be dependent on Brits much longer despite your opinions on their society matters. They are not necessarily interested in Brits hitting their beaches in bikinis drinking cocktails while taking video and photography calling it a working holiday topping up the tan with materialistic paradise retail therapy daytime and party dresses drunken dinner parties nighttime. It's another world and one that is attractive to certain tastes.

For me it's the opposite. I've been sexually harassed more on the Tube than I have in Muslim countries. But these are just anecdotes, not statistics.

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

That is all true in geopolitical terms. And it may be the reason why very little is done. But of course the thread dealt with an individual decision to go there. Many people disapprove of Dubai and UAE, and the clash between the rights for individuals in the UK and in these territories are quite different.

When it comes to values, you can make that judgment. There would be few I believe who would want the culture that makes domestic slavery acceptable and exploitation replicated here. Geopolitics or not.