Is this racist?

[Sapho47]

I saw this article on lower uptake of the vaccine in bame groups.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/04/black-over-80s-in-england-half-as-likely-to-have-had-covid-vaccine

My reaction to this stood out to me as a bit weird

"Channer urged the government to allow a black-led independent expert taskforce to have oversight of the vaccination process to raise black confidence levels. He also called for urgent research to be conducted on whether the black community would be less hesitant if black experts had oversight."
"We have the expertise. I call on the government to have designated vaccination centres manned by black clinicians,”

If it was the other way around and "we want other white people to give us our vaccine as we don't trust none whites" it would clearly be wrong but reading this i do immediately start making justifications. There has been historical abuse so its right to be mistrustful right?

But then I'd not apply that logic backwards I wouldn't be nodding in agreement with a white person saying they don't trust black people after xyz incident.

So I suppose the iabu is more is it racist to see a quote from an ethnic minority group saying they trust more their own ethnic minority to treat them than a white person, as understandable and acceptable. Whereas a white person wanting a white doctor treating them I'd judge them on it.

On first glance it might appear to be racist. BUT. There is a very long history of racism towards BAME communities in the name of healthcare.

I am not easily shocked but it really disturbed me when I began to learn about it. There are modern as well as historic cases - the fact, well explained by Candice Brathwaite, that black mothers are statically proven to be more likely to die in labour in the UK and less likely to be given enough painkillers.

Further back, cases like Henrietta Lacks (where her cells were taken and cloned without her consent, against her family's religious beliefs). There is a great book about it called The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks.

Then further back to the inventor of forceps, J Marion Sims, who forcibly used them on his slaves causing horrific pain and injury, before trying them on white women.

Some people within BAME communities have a mistrust about whether they will be treated well. And some people prefer non-western medicine to treat their illnesses (as indeed some western people do).

I live in a place with a high level of BAME people and I know they had to put local radio adverts out with famous actors explaining how serious Covid 19 is because lots of people -especially older ones- don't read the papers, watch the British news, or socialise outside their community.

If communities have misgivings, it is more helpful to have someone they trust be a reassuring voice rather than a pile of scientists or strangers. I can understand the low take up rate in communities who have been poorly served by western medicine.

I think the article is too simplistic. Every single BAME person would happily go to hospital and be treated by a white person if needed. It’s sad that this is now being politicised in such a way.

To overcome issues of distrust or uncertainty within a specific community you need to work with members of that community who are going to be able to reassure people and understand the issues.

The real question should be, who exactly is feeding propaganda to BAMEs that the vaccine is "bad" for them? To my knowledge it's BAMEs spreading the antivaccine message within their communities rather than a white supremacist conspiracy to dissuade them from having the vaccine and therefore hoping (in their eyes) more of them will die.

Personally I don't buy the argument that BAMEs reject the vaccine because it's promoted by white experts. I genuinely cannot remember the last time I saw a white doctor (neither do I care, until I started typing this message I hadn't really thought about it), in my area BAME doctors are overwhelmingly in the majority. I'm pretty certain these BAME doctors are not telling me to have the vaccine whilst simultaneously telling people of their own ethnicity not to.

I think, considering the amount of racism towards black people from white people, including hcp, they're probably right to feel that way. It's kind like women wanting women involved in their medical care, you wouldn't want an all male medical team telling you somethings safe for you, you'd want women. Black people want black people involved in their care.

So I suppose the iabu is more is it racist to see a quote from an ethnic minority group saying they trust more their own ethnic minority to treat them than a white person, as understandable and acceptable. Whereas a white person wanting a white doctor treating them I'd judge them on it.

Would it be sexist for a woman to insist on being treated by a woman?

I remember watching an episode of "Last Week Tonight" and though American based, it showed how BAME people can be treated by the medical community.

The one which stuck out was that 25% of second year students believed that black people have thicker skin than whites, there were also statistics indicating that it was also thought that black people feel pain less.

I think BAME is a racist term in general. What does someone from Korea have in common with someone with a Jamaican background have in common with someone from Bangladesh, beyond our shared humanity?

We won't get anywhere with vaccine uptake unless we understand individual reasons for hesitancy. Why would staffing a vaccination centre with Black clinicians increase uptake from the British Pakistani community for example?

To see everyone with a 'non-white' background as a cultural monolith with shared ideals and fears is racist and othering. It just is. Yet all woke people love to do it in the name of anti racism. As though everyone with a background other than white is defined solely by their non-white background, I mean honestly.

There's huge number of black and other ethnic minority health care staff in the UK. It's racist to think ethnic minorities can't trust health staff as it implicitly implies only white people are in those positions.

"If it was the other way around and "we want other white people to give us our vaccine as we don't trust none whites" it would clearly be wrong but reading this i do immediately start making justifications. There has been historical abuse so its right to be mistrustful right?"

I do think its different than the other way round, for a variety of reasons (some of which have already been mentioned). But even if it wasn't - in the opposite case I think the priority should still be encouraging the reluctant to have the vaccine which could save their lives as well as their loved ones. I would not want an arguement about whether Doris is being racist to get in the way of that. In the same way I loathe Piers Morgan but will accept he can play an important role in getting some of my older, right wing relatives, to get the vaccine. Its about trust, and reaching different demographics.

I also thinking BAME is a racist term, who came up with it. Why lump everyone that isn't white together, they are all completely separate groups with their own identities.

Also many medical practitioners are BAME (just using the term for convenience), so there is a good chance you will be injected by a non white person, especially in a city. How would it really be if a white person insisted on only being injected by a white person.

Finally, I agree, we need to find out if conspiracy theories are circulating in certain communities, we can then tackle these conspiracy theories head on.

@Sirzy

To overcome issues of distrust or uncertainty within a specific community you need to work with members of that community who are going to be able to reassure people and understand the issues.

Not completely sure about that, I think you might be a bit naive. A lot of communities have self appointed community leaders, that don't hold the sway in the community that they claim to, or they only have influence on a certain sub group like older people or younger people or a sub group within the group (for example in a Muslim community, only Muslims that came from Kashmir would listen to a particular "leader").

Again, I think by using the term BAME many groups and sub groups are just lumped together, and a lot of interactions between these groups and subgroups are being missed.

It would probably be lawful positive action.

(1)This section applies if a person (P) reasonably thinks that—

• (a) persons who share a protected characteristic suffer a disadvantage connected to the characteristic,

• (b) persons who share a protected characteristic have needs that are different from the needs of persons who do not share it, or

• (c) participation in an activity by persons who share a protected characteristic is disproportionately low.

(2) This Act does not prohibit P from taking any action which is a proportionate means of achieving the aim of—

• (a) enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to overcome or minimise that disadvantage,

• (b) meeting those needs, or

• (c) enabling or encouraging persons who share the protected characteristic to participate in that activity.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/158

(unless they lumped everyone together and had 'BAME vaccination centres' because 'BAME' is not a race)

@Sapho47

"

But then I'd not apply that logic backwards I wouldn't be nodding in agreement with a white person saying they don't trust black people after xyz incident."

There's no history of oppression and racism by black people towards white people by black people, gas there?

Just think about everything you've heard over the last year or so about BLM, institutionalised racism etc. Consider it all, then read the article again.

It's not at all weird that some black people don't trust white medicine. Yes it might be history, but it's fairly recent history and more has to be done to show that medicine isn't racist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4354806/

www.history.com/news/the-father-of-modern-gynecology-performed-shocking-experiments-on-slaves

These are just a few resources that I found in a 15 second google. Might be worth a read. There are loads more.

The irony of @tttigress saying BAME is a racist term, then using it as shorthand....

You can’t ‘backwards logic’ racism because it’s completely contextual. You have to situate lower vaccine uptake in BAME communities within the correct historical context of black people being experimented on, dismissed, undermined, abused and denied treatment by the predominantly white medical community. White people have never faced that kind of abuse; the situations cannot be compared.

@tinselandlights
Then further back to the inventor of forceps, J Marion Sims, who forcibly used them on his slaves causing horrific pain and injury, before trying them on white women.

This is incorrect. Forceps for use in childbirth were invented in the 17th century, 200yrs before Marion Sims. They were invented in France by the Chamberlen family and used first on French aristocratic white women before they emigrated to London and used them there. Even Marie Antoinette, last queen of France, had forceps assisted birth. Your narrative of them being invented in the US in the 19th century and tested on slaves is a fake history.

I think it's general gynaecology in the US. Forceps were used to keep slaves open for general gynecology studies. A lot of black women were open up and left without painkillers. Studied continuously.

@AnnLouiseB. It's a conundrum though. Because BAME are lumped together it's hard to know which community is refusing and on what grounds - and whether there's cross over from those (BAME or white) who believe antivaxx stuff on media, whether there's religious or colonial objection (Afghani medical personnel being murdered while trying to vaccinate, Kaunda saying HIV was white oppression, Ebola nurses attacked in the DRC). Re white people have never faced that kind of abuse - many white women did but not systemically.

OP
When you lift the statement and quote it out of the context of the article, it does seem at worst racially tone deaf. But I went and read the entire article and it’s quote from a black doctor and medical expert on epidemiology, so no it then is not and cannot be racist. They’re talking about ways to increase confidence in the vaccine and staffing vaccination centres with a diverse workforce is a good idea (although it does increase BAME over exposure to Covid because you know some asymptimatic Covid carriers are going to be showing up for a vaccine and they’re going to have to get less than 2m away to jab them).

I don't think anyone said 'white people have never faced any abuseever in their lives as individuals ever but as a whole cultural group - no it's not the same - at all.

Whenever racism is discussed here (usually on a faux 'oh my is this racism it's always turned into whataboutism - we are discussing BME people not being vaccinated and addressing that - that is not a problem for anyone surely?

I also do not like the term BAME, but this article that the OP linked to is clearly focussed only on the B, the black community, because their vaccine uptake is the worst. Half that of their white peers in age and even well below that of the other minority peers of their age.

That’s why Channer called for black clinicians and more black experts communicating to the black community. Because it’s where confidence is lowest, refusal is highest and it cannot be ignored.

Listening to the Coronavirus update on BBC now and Chris Whitty and Simon Stevens the head of NHS have just answered a question on the uptake amongst minority ethnic groups. Lots of work is clearly taking place to address this, as they said we are fighting both a pandemic and the disease of misinformation. Both need to be fought vigorously.

Considering the virus has more potential to harm black people I think it is imperative we do everything we can to raise confidence of the vaccine amongst the black community.

But I don't see why this would be an issue the other way round either, in the same set of circumstances.

I think any measures which can be taken to try and encourage vaccine uptake within the population who are skeptical or have concerns based on misinformation which has been spread is only a good thing.

The more people vaccinated the better. Its not only the BAME community there have been outreaches to help provide information in parts of Scotland as well as some elderly had concerns and were believing misinformation which was circulated.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@tinselandlights
Then further back to the inventor of forceps, J Marion Sims, who forcibly used them on his slaves causing horrific pain and injury, before trying them on white women.

This is incorrect. Forceps for use in childbirth were invented in the 17th century, 200yrs before Marion Sims. They were invented in France by the Chamberlen family and used first on French aristocratic white women before they emigrated to London and used them there. Even Marie Antoinette, last queen of France, had forceps assisted birth. Your narrative of them being invented in the US in the 19th century and tested on slaves is a fake history.[/quote]
They were wrong about forceps but not about J Marlon Sims which is more important in the context of this thread. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Marion_Sims