Is this racist?

[Sapho47]

I saw this article on lower uptake of the vaccine in bame groups.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/04/black-over-80s-in-england-half-as-likely-to-have-had-covid-vaccine

My reaction to this stood out to me as a bit weird

"Channer urged the government to allow a black-led independent expert taskforce to have oversight of the vaccination process to raise black confidence levels. He also called for urgent research to be conducted on whether the black community would be less hesitant if black experts had oversight."
"We have the expertise. I call on the government to have designated vaccination centres manned by black clinicians,”

If it was the other way around and "we want other white people to give us our vaccine as we don't trust none whites" it would clearly be wrong but reading this i do immediately start making justifications. There has been historical abuse so its right to be mistrustful right?

But then I'd not apply that logic backwards I wouldn't be nodding in agreement with a white person saying they don't trust black people after xyz incident.

So I suppose the iabu is more is it racist to see a quote from an ethnic minority group saying they trust more their own ethnic minority to treat them than a white person, as understandable and acceptable. Whereas a white person wanting a white doctor treating them I'd judge them on it.

@Fatladyslim

Considering the virus has more potential to harm black people I think it is imperative we do everything we can to raise confidence of the vaccine amongst the black community.

But I don't see why this would be an issue the other way round either, in the same set of circumstances.

Really? I think it would be an issue, there are/were rising cases of measles due to parents refusing to get MMR vaccine. There was plenty of literature thrown at me to ensure I vaccinated my DC.

@TenaciousOnePointOne
They were still wrong. Not the inventor of forceps. And forceps were used first on white women, not black slaves.

When you take those false points away all you have is a sick bastard slave owner experimenting on black slaves which should surprise exactly no one because it was so common. In fact it’s doubly wrong to imply that Sims poor slaves were necessary sacrifices to “invent forceps” and forceps save mothers and babies today.

There were no fucking benefits to medicine by his actions, he invented nothing, he made no contribution to science at all. He was a sick evil person who should have died in childhood before he could harm any of those innocent women.

The establishment is white.

There is a long and shameful history of black people - especially women - being treated as guinea pigs by medical and pharmaceutical researchers.

Look at how many white posters on here are suspicious of the vaccine, without being affected by these factors.

You simply can't swap black for white in this scenario.

How do you propose to enable confidence and trust in the black population? Tell them they are wrong, wrong, wrong and at risk and need to get a grip?

Henrietta Lacks:
www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/31/henrietta-lacks-cancer-research-genome

Agree with the concept of race and BAME being a misnomer. The issue that irks me the most, especially with the healthcare profession is that BAME is over represented (particularly amongst medics) which he’s is the case but if you break the numbers down blacks are actually underrepresented especially at senior medical position level.

I also don’t think there is a lot being done about it too right from the medical student to even being appointed as a consultant. Basically the stats are not in your favour as a black (trust me I know!)

I think we do need to see more physical representation from minority groups especially those underrepresented to aid in encouraging minority groups to partake in this vaccination program.

I am white British. I asked my black African boyfriend his opinion. He said if a clinician speaks on TV and can give good medical justification for the vaccine he will have it. He said for him colour is irrelevant. He said he doesn't need to hear it from a black person, he needs to hear it from someone who explains it in a way that appeals to his logic.

Also, lumping all black people together is madness. Someone like my partner who grew up in West Africa may have quite a different outlook than a black British person.

Let's stop assuming what anyone is thinking and ask them instead.

If the issue is specifically black communities then yes, it makes sense to have black clinicians and no - it's not racist, it's acknowledging that racism could be an issue preventing black people from having the vaccine or seeking medical advice from white experts. Medical experimentation and poor health outcomes in relation to black people has no doubt caused mistrust.

Someone said on here they can't remember the last time they saw a white doctor...well not sure where in the UK they are because I can't remember speaking to many non white doctors either myself or for my dad's care (half Nigerian) I have come across some Asian doctors. But a black doctor of Afro Carribbean descent? There really aren't many of those.

The vaccine issue hasn't come out a vacuum. For starters BAME people tend to have poorer health, whether NHS treatment has contributed will lead to distrust of further medical care. There were tragic cases of black people being less likely to be admitted to hospital to covid and left to die in their homes. There are greater maternal death rates, issues with 'pain tolerance' for this group and also mental health problems - particularly exacerbated by racism. And NOW everyone is up in arms about vaccines - where has this concern been for all of these people's lives?

It's a very complicated issue which needs a sensitive approach.

[quote slashlover]So I suppose the iabu is more is it racist to see a quote from an ethnic minority group saying they trust more their own ethnic minority to treat them than a white person, as understandable and acceptable. Whereas a white person wanting a white doctor treating them I'd judge them on it.

Would it be sexist for a woman to insist on being treated by a woman?

I remember watching an episode of "Last Week Tonight" and though American based, it showed how BAME people can be treated by the medical community.

The one which stuck out was that 25% of second year students believed that black people have thicker skin than whites, there were also statistics indicating that it was also thought that black people feel pain less.

[/quote] Sorry I was asking is it racist of me that I'd judge a white person for thinking this way (wanting thier doctor/expert to be the same skin colour) but I wouldn't judge a bame person.

Is that doing them a disservice? Holding them to a lower standard i suppose.

@AnnLouiseB

You can’t ‘backwards logic’ racism because it’s completely contextual. You have to situate lower vaccine uptake in BAME communities within the correct historical context of black people being experimented on, dismissed, undermined, abused and denied treatment by the predominantly white medical community. White people have never faced that kind of abuse; the situations cannot be compared.

I'm not backwards logicing I know the thought process is different each way.

But how about these statements

It is understandable that historic events between white and BAME people can influence a BAME citizens views and actions in situations where they interact with white people.

^ pretty sure that would see general agreement i agree with it too.

But if I say

A white British person would be an unreasonable to be influenced historic events between the UK and Germany or France when interacting with a white French or German citizen.

^
I think that's pretty fair if too mild. I would call any British person who doesn't trust the French or the germans because of the centuries of conflict between the countries as an idiot tbh.

MN is so horribly racist at times. The results here are no exception.

Look at the maternal mortality rates in the U.K. for white women compared to black women.

Look at the studies showing that black people are half as likely to be given pain relief than white people.

I am white but understand completely why black people may distrust the healthcare system (and the judicial system etc). I can’t believe that anyone can be so blind to it.

If it was women, travelling community or religious group the would be the same.

It’s like a none issue. Just like don’t know why you mentioned if it was other way round white tell white. I don’t think some people grasp meaning of white privilege.

I learnt few years ago and was shocked that even the standard of maternity care was not equal across the board for all women, it also depended on colour of your skin.

Seems a little bizarre to me. Where I am in London more than half the people giving the jabs would be black. Then around a quarter Asian and the rest white.

The vaccine minister is in the BAME category himself. He seems to have a good grasp of the issue. Vaccinations hubs have been set up on places different communities are likely to feel more comfortable.

The issue is social media. The main people sending me YouTube videos of anti vax fakery are my black friends. All intelligent people. Middle aged and should know better. Apparently though Whitty and co know nothing. Whereas Dr Covidiot is ot be believed or the nurse lying on a bed telling them she has had the jab and is about die.

YouTube and similar platforms need to be policing and deleting this tripe.

@Deathgrip

MN is so horribly racist at times. The results here are no exception.

Look at the maternal mortality rates in the U.K. for white women compared to black women.

Look at the studies showing that black people are half as likely to be given pain relief than white people.

I am white but understand completely why black people may distrust the healthcare system (and the judicial system etc). I can’t believe that anyone can be so blind to it.

I think the poster is willfully blind. Lots of posters have discussed many of the issues and they are not comparable to ‘ a history of conflict’. It’s interesting too that the op draws the conclusion that she would judge people with such mistrust as ‘ idiots tbh’ I too am thinking there is an underbelly of racism that is popping up on a quite frequent basis recently.

BAME is a stupid term. It lumps everyone who is not white into one homogeneous group. Which people are not.It implies that default is white.

"I think the poster is willfully blind.
Lots of posters have discussed many of the issues and they are not comparable to ‘ a history of conflict’. It’s interesting too that the op draws the conclusion that she would judge people with such mistrust as ‘ idiots tbh’
I too am thinking there is an underbelly of racism that is popping up on a quite frequent basis recently"

Do you want to reread my post again?

Because I didn't compare the two and the "idiots" would be the people on the history of conflict.

In every post I've made it clear I understand why people are mistrusting I've asked repeatedly is it racist of me that I would not be understanding in the same way to a white person.

Funny that I work alongside 2 Asian doctors, 3 Indian nurses and a nurse from North Africa, if the black community doesn't want white clinical staff giving them jabs then fair enough but in every Dr's surgery and every ward in a hospital they will find non white clinical staff working alongside with white people. Just an excuse to segregate and cause an even bigger division.

I think given the increased risks posed by Covid to BAME communities, they are being foolish. Surely they will be lining up to get the same vaccine as people of every complexion and heritage?

I think given the increased risks posed by Covid to BAME communities, they are being foolish.

Your assumption is foolish.

Why would the government and higher health officials be so very concerned about Black people's health? When they never, ever have been before? That's a key question in people's minds and I don't blame anyone who asks themselves this question (& it IS a topic), because there is every good reason to be wary.

This country doesn't give a shit about Black people. The Windrush scandal, demonising of Black youths, poor hospital care for Black mothers, scapegoating of Black people in general whenever a politician wants to draw attention away from how badly they are doing their job;

In fact Priti Patel is at it right now isn't she? Windrush scandal hasn't even been resolved yet but she's scorning BLM in an attempt to appease her fascist fan club who are complaining she hasn't gotten rid of all the immigrants. This is what she's choosing to do, in the middle of a Pandemic.

She's 'AME' isn't she? But instead of saying something positive about the vaccine, which she is very well placed to do, she is again reminding Black people that her hate of 'Black' is palpable. She speaks for the government, does she not?

Do you really think all of the above isn't noticed?

Politicians say Black people don't trust the vaccine. & Neatly sidestep that they caused Black people to mistrust in the 1st place. So it's their job to gain trust isn't it.

They messed up. & Black people aren't foolish for mistrusting, on that basis.

'Yeah but just take the vaccine' isn't enough.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@TenaciousOnePointOne
They were still wrong. Not the inventor of forceps. And forceps were used first on white women, not black slaves.

When you take those false points away all you have is a sick bastard slave owner experimenting on black slaves which should surprise exactly no one because it was so common. In fact it’s doubly wrong to imply that Sims poor slaves were necessary sacrifices to “invent forceps” and forceps save mothers and babies today.

There were no fucking benefits to medicine by his actions, he invented nothing, he made no contribution to science at all. He was a sick evil person who should have died in childhood before he could harm any of those innocent women.[/quote]
While you assert he added nothing to science or medicine his actions were in the name of both. He isn’t the only person in recent history who picked out black people as a people to experiment on. There is a long history of black people being treated as animals. The PP was trying to point out why black people may not be trusting of the medical profession.

@Savethewhales who is asking for segregation? No one is asking for only BAME medical staff for BAME patients. They are asking that BAME staff investigate and discuss with BAME patients their reluctance to have a vaccine. It’s so their is mutual trust and no othering while this process goes on. Imagine how nasty it is to have someone calling you stupid because you don’t trust them. As stated on this thread there are a multitude of reasons for why that mistrust exists.

Why are we pretending like BAME staff don't understand the problem? They are BAME aren't they? Do they not have families and friends? This information and misstrust did not come out of a vacuum.

@debbrianna

Why are we pretending like BAME staff don't understand the problem? They are BAME aren't they? Do they not have families and friends? This information and misstrust did not come out of a vacuum.

While I agree I think there is an issue with approaching it head on. You need to listen and be approachable. The approach on this thread to almost berate people into having the vaccine will have the opposite affect.

@TenaciousOnePointOne
We seem to be in violent agreement then with one another. I do know that was the point the PP was trying to make with example of Sims but I really strongly object to the false bits regarding him as an “inventor” because they seemed to implicitly justify such atrocities.

No, it is not racist to try and overcome racial inequality. Jeez.

Heartened by the vote percentages here, I didn't expect MN to say YABU. But yes, YABU. Trying to flip it around to "what if it were white people saying this" is a nonsense. White people haven't experienced the same racism as BAME people have.

@Sirzy

To overcome issues of distrust or uncertainty within a specific community you need to work with members of that community who are going to be able to reassure people and understand the issues.

As above.

They need to do whatever it takes. And no I don't think it's racist.