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Senate clears Trump of inciting insurrection

179 replies

Iamnotminterested · 13/02/2021 21:00

Well there we go 😔

OP posts:
HmmSureJan · 17/02/2021 00:24

@PlanDeRaccordement you are making perfect sense unfortunately many people just cannot think critically when it comes to Trump and there can be no reasonable discussions. It's very frustrating because now more than ever actual critical analysis is needed. I agree that the US is headed towards Civil War. It's very worrying.

Cacacoisfarraige · 17/02/2021 06:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlanDeRaccordement · 17/02/2021 09:08

@Cacacoisfarraige

Great rewriting here. Family separation was a Trump policy. He and his cabinet decided on a ‘zero tolerance approach’. He thought it would go well with the racist element of his base.

He only wanted white immigrants like his wife - maybe he knows he’ll be on the hunt for no 4 soon. I remember he mentioned that he’d like some more Norwegians.

I see Trump has turned on McConnell. Trump wasn’t impeached thanks to the GOP so I’m guessing that’s his reward.

Trump wants to install a loyalist in charge of the GOP senate
He wants to stop the GOP cooperating in any way with the democrats and provide an obstructionist opposition.

BUT my point is that Trump and AG Sessions have no authority to do anything more than implement already existing laws that Congress has passed. The family separation policy WAS a side effect of Trump executing 8 USC 1325, Improper Entry by Alien which was first passed by Congress in 1952 and it’s latest update was in 1996. IF Congress didn’t want Trump to enforce this law, which THEY WROTE, they had the power to change it. But they did not change it, it’s still there on the books. www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325
PlanDeRaccordement · 17/02/2021 09:14

@SenecaFallsRedux

Nancy Pelosi is the one person in charge of changing US laws. And what does she do?

This is incorrect. Any member of either house can introduce legislation, and depending on the party make-up of each house, and even the personalities of the leadership, often the Majority Leader of the Senate has as much (or more) actual power to influence the progress of legislation.

Traditionally, the Senate is considered the more prestigious of the two branches, and certainly has powers that the House does not, such as confirming appointments of cabinet members and judges.

Yes a Senator can introduce a bill, but they have to get it through the House first and Pelosi controls that entire process. She is higher up than you say.

rantt.com/role-of-the-speaker-of-the-house

What Is The Role Of The Speaker Of The House?

The Speaker of the House, an office currently held by Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), is the highest-ranking member of the Legislative Branch of government and second in the line of succession to the presidency behind the vice president. Elected by a majority of the members, as directed by Article 1, Section 2 of the Constitution, the role of Speaker has evolved over time.

The modern-day Speaker acts as leader of the majority party, determining the agenda and priorities for the House while fulfilling parliamentary and administrative functions like:

Presiding over the House and calling it to order
Appointing officers
Recognizing Members to speak on the floor
Referring matters to committees
Bringing matters up to vote
Signing all “acts and joint resolutions, writs, warrants, and subpoenas of (or issued to) the House”
Negotiating with the President as needed
While the Speaker of the House serves as its highest-ranking officer, the Speaker remains a representative of her constituents, doing the work of her district, in addition to her leadership duties. As per current rules, the Speaker can choose whether to vote in legislative matters.

What Makes The Speaker Of The House So Powerful?

In addition to being a vice president away from the presidency, the Speaker determines the agenda and priorities for the House. While any member of the House can introduce legislation, the Speaker determines how that legislation is handled and whether it sees a floor vote. In that way, the tone of the House can change dramatically depending upon the Speaker.

In the modern era, former Republican speaker Newt Gingrich (GA), elected to the position in 1995 and enraged by his Democratic predecessor, Texan Jim Wright, created a tone of antagonistic partisanship, setting the House to work solely on the Republican agenda, and focused his leadership efforts on fundraising and campaigns to keep his party in power. The tradition of fundraising continues, regardless of party; Nancy Pelosi brought in more than $80 million prior to regaining the office of Speaker.

With the power of the Speakership, Pelosi determined whether Donald Trump’s actions warranted an impeachment inquiry; her powers also including bringing the Articles of Impeachment to a full vote of the House. She appointed the seven impeachment managers who would prosecute the case in the Senate: Adam Schiff (D-CA), Jerry Nadler (D-NY), Zoe Lofgren (D-CA), Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY), Val Demings (D-FL), Jason Crow (D-CO), and Sylvia Garcia (D-TX). While the Constitution puts the sole power of impeachment in the hands of the House, the Speaker determines the how and when.

PlanDeRaccordement · 17/02/2021 09:22

For anyone who thinks US-Mexico migrants were treated humanely before Trump. Trump was the tip of a long standing iceberg of callous corruption that is all through Congress as well. This is an article about a CBP janitor who stated to collect and preserve confiscated items in 2007. He now curates these items and photographs them to raise awareness of that there was probably never a period in US history when the inhumane treatment of migrants hasn’t happened. Trump leaving office isn’t going to change this because it was there before him, and it’s still going on.
www.newyorker.com/culture/photo-booth/a-janitors-collection-of-things-confiscated-from-migrants-in-the-desert

Cacacoisfarraige · 17/02/2021 10:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MottTheHoople · 17/02/2021 11:29

You think it would be a Democrat/left wing site streaming Trump info?! The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze.

LexMitior · 17/02/2021 11:38

@Cacacoisfarraige

Great rewriting here. Family separation was a Trump policy. He and his cabinet decided on a ‘zero tolerance approach’. He thought it would go well with the racist element of his base.

He only wanted white immigrants like his wife - maybe he knows he’ll be on the hunt for no 4 soon. I remember he mentioned that he’d like some more Norwegians.

I see Trump has turned on McConnell. Trump wasn’t impeached thanks to the GOP so I’m guessing that’s his reward.

Trump wants to install a loyalist in charge of the GOP senate
He wants to stop the GOP cooperating in any way with the democrats and provide an obstructionist opposition.

This is Mitch McConnell's just desserts. In not exercising his power to excise Trump and face the pain of what it would do the GOP immediately, he's going to be slowly stripped of power and degraded. Lets face it the only way to deal with Trump is actually go toe to toe with him - not trying to avoid the problems.

It is deserved. McConnell had a lot of power which he did not use. Claims to be an institutional man, well he will have pretty much destroyed his own power.

Cacacoisfarraige · 17/02/2021 12:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SenecaFallsRedux · 17/02/2021 12:42

Yes a Senator can introduce a bill, but they have to get it through the House first

No. What would be the point of a Senator introducing a bill if his/her own chamber can't pass it? The Senate can pass a bill before it goes to the House. In fact, what often happens is that the House and Senate pass differing versions of the same legislative effort and then they have to work on a compromise through the Conference Committee process so that they both come up with the same bill.

Legislation can start in either house (except for revenue bills, which must start in the House of Representatives) and each house can pass its bills independently of the other house. But they can't become law until both houses pass the same version and the President signs.

As a practical matter, introducing bills is often coordinated between the two houses, with sponsors in both houses often working together. This is obviously much more difficult when one party controls the House and the other the Senate.

SenecaFallsRedux · 17/02/2021 13:08

Here’s an example from one of our signal civil rights statutes, the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990 that passed the Senate before it passed the House.

Introduced in the Senate as Senate Bill 933 on May 9, 1988; passed the Senate on September 7, 1989; passed the House on May 22, 1990, reported by the joint conference committee on July 12, 1990; report of the joint conference agreed to by both houses in July 1990, signed into law by the first President Bush on July 26, 1990

Jaypreen · 17/02/2021 18:58

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]For anyone who thinks US-Mexico migrants were treated humanely before Trump. Trump was the tip of a long standing iceberg of callous corruption that is all through Congress as well. This is an article about a CBP janitor who stated to collect and preserve confiscated items in 2007. He now curates these items and photographs them to raise awareness of that there was probably never a period in US history when the inhumane treatment of migrants hasn’t happened. Trump leaving office isn’t going to change this because it was there before him, and it’s still going on.
www.newyorker.com/culture/photo-booth/a-janitors-collection-of-things-confiscated-from-migrants-in-the-desert[/quote]
This is true

Senate clears Trump of inciting insurrection
Puzzledandpissedoff · 17/02/2021 19:15

Well said about the US-Mexico immigrants, PlanDeRaccordement, but I can't help thinking you're spoiling things a bit

There's already plenty to blame Trump for without the need to make things up, but often on MN everything seems to be his fault

MissConductUS · 17/02/2021 19:27

He wasn't cleared, he just wasn't convicted. Lots of guilty people go free after a trial for lots of reasons. What the whole impeachment process did accomplish was to make it clear that he was responsible for what happened. It also served to rubbish his brand, which is a good thing. There is lots more legal trouble headed his way now, which will further marginalize him.

Cacacoisfarraige · 18/02/2021 08:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/02/2021 09:03

@MissConductUS
He wasn't cleared, he just wasn't convicted. Lots of guilty people go free after a trial for lots of reasons. What the whole impeachment process did accomplish was to make it clear that he was responsible for what happened.

I agree Trump is guilty as hell. But I disagree that he wasn’t cleared, he was he was full acquitted which means found not guilty by the Senate. Therefore the process actually absolved him of all responsibility and made him a stronger candidate to run for office again in 2024. It strengthened him, not weakened him. And a side effect of that is that if anyone else invites violence like he did in future they are also likely to be acquitted and not held responsible. It sets a very dangerous precedent.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/02/2021 09:11

[quote Cacacoisfarraige]@PlanDeRaccordement

I see you have given a great Wikipedia explanation of speaker etc but haven’t mentioned how the president and cabinet interpret the existing laws which end up in the courts like the Muslim bans

It’s interesting you bring up Newt Gingrich. I believe he is the original source of hyper partisanship. I despise the man.[/quote]
Yes the executive branch executes the laws written by Congress. But if they mis-interpret the laws, the judicial branch is there to make the executive branch change how they execute the laws. The Muslim ban was a case where the President and his advisors, Steve Bannon especially, did not realise that while you can ban immigrants on basis of national origin if the nation in question is an enemy or terror risk, you can’t ban immigrants on the basis of religion. Bannon argued that Trump should “try” because these countries had Christian refugees who were being persecuted for their religion and he wanted to stop dangerous terrorists from those nations, while still allowing Christian refugees. Not excusing it, just explaining their thought process.
Trump and Bannon then issued the immigration ban but because it was a ban based on religion, not nation, the judiciary ruled it to be illegal. And it was revised into a 90 day pause on all immigration from the list of nations while they beefed up the security and background checks for all applicants. In practice this meant they could be legal on the surface but then just deny any Muslims from those countries visas at an individual level. So Trump and Bannon exploited a loophole.

On Newt Gingrich, I also can’t stand him. I didn’t actually bring it up, it was just in the bits I cut and pasted about the speaker of the house and I couldn’t be bothered to delete it. :)

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/02/2021 09:17

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Well said about the US-Mexico immigrants, PlanDeRaccordement, but I can't help thinking you're spoiling things a bit

There's already plenty to blame Trump for without the need to make things up, but often on MN everything seems to be his fault

I guess I’m just saying the fight isn’t over yet. Trump out of office should be the beginning of a bigger course correction in the US. There is so much going wrong over there and has been for a long time now. my sister and her family live there, I lived there for four years too. So I have reason to care about the lives of regular Americans and in this thread it did seem to me like the celebrations are premature. Biden and Harris have a lot of work to do and only four short years unless they get a second term. And there is more to be done than just correct Trumps mistakes. There are enduring inequalities, injustices and inhumane atrocities that need urgently to be corrected.
Livelovebehappy · 18/02/2021 09:19

So much for Biden saying he wants to unite America, and work for everyone. The witch hunt needs to stop. The situation is very fragile and the focus should be on more important issues, looking forward and not back.

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/02/2021 09:27

@Livelovebehappy
Exactly. Which is why I am wishing Pelosi and Congress had spent their time writing, debating and passing to the Senate some new laws to be ready for Biden to sign that would help Americans instead of focusing on a show impeachment trial that everyone knew would fail. They’ve lost precious time.

Cacacoisfarraige · 18/02/2021 09:57

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DuncinToffee · 18/02/2021 10:14

Or if the Trump administration had not obstructed a smooth transition process

www.politifact.com/article/2020/nov/20/trump-biden-transition-process-how-gone-off-rails/

PlanDeRaccordement · 18/02/2021 11:05

@Cacacoisfarraige and @DuncinToffee
Precisely. The obstruction and corruption is not Trump alone and it’s still there. So many still in positions of power are abusing it.

SenecaFallsRedux · 18/02/2021 14:03

At the risk of being overly pedantic (but, oh hell, why not), acquitted or "not guilty" does not mean "cleared" in the prevailing contexts of the US systems of justice so MissConduct is right. This is especially true for an essentially political process like impeachment. Acquitted does not mean innocent. It usually means that the prosecution did not meet its burden of proof.

MissConductUS · 18/02/2021 14:12

Acquitted does not mean innocent. It usually means that the prosecution did not meet its burden of proof.

Correct. There's little doubt the OJ Simpson killed Nicole Kidman despite the verdict in the criminal case, but he later lost a civil suit over the matter. Trump is now being sued civilly for starting the riot.