Is this offensive?

[cherryolives]

For a white person who is British but born in Kashmir to describe themselves as Kashmiri?

Say somebody who is white British was born in Kashmir (before Indian independence) to white British parents and was then brought up in Britain, has British nationality and has not lived in Kashmir except very early childhood are they Kashmiri or is it offensive to claim that they are?
I don't think they are Kashmiri. Their parents are British, they themselves are therefore British citizens I assume. They didn't live in Kashmir for long. Their only connection is being born there. If British parents are working for 2 years in a country and have a child whilst there and then leave then the child can't reasonable call themselves as being of that country.

@Bluntness100

I can’t see this as being offensive. My daughter was born in Scotland, she lived there till three, moved to England. Is she supposed to say she’s English?

How old is she? If she has live the subsequent 40 years in England then I would not find it odd at all if she called herself English

@MustardMitt

It stinks of white colonialism if I’m honest.

But that’s my only thought on it really. I don’t think it’s up to me to decide what people from a completely different country and ethnicity find offensive.

For goodness sake

If my daughter, born in Scotland and lived there till the age of three, said actually I’m Scottish no one would bat an eye lid.

But because it’s Kashmir, where he was born and lived in his formative years he’s not allowed to say “actually I’m first generation Kashmiri” which he absolutely is.

Honestly there’s woke and theres going too far. This is the latter.

Your nationality is dictated by your country of birth. He is Kashmiri. There is nothing offensive about it.

How old is she? If she has live the subsequent 40 years in England then I would not find it odd at all if she called herself English

She’s 23. She doesn’t say she’s English. Because she’s not. And she has the birth certificate to prove it.

@withmycoffee

Say somebody who is white British was born in Kashmir (before Indian independence) to white British parents and was then brought up in Britain, has British nationality and has not lived in Kashmir except very early childhood are they Kashmiri or is it offensive to claim that they are? I don't think they are Kashmiri. Their parents are British, they themselves are therefore British citizens I assume. They didn't live in Kashmir for long. Their only connection is being born there. If British parents are working for 2 years in a country and have a child whilst there and then leave then the child can't reasonable call themselves as being of that country.

This isnt the case with JL, her family lived in the area since 18th century

SimonJT

Yeah, now I am...

I don't think they are Kashmiri. Their parents are British, they themselves are therefore British citizens I assume. They didn't live in Kashmir for long. Their only connection is being born there. If British parents are working for 2 years in a country and have a child whilst there and then leave then the child can't reasonable call themselves as being of that country

This is legally and factually incorrect. If the child was born in Kashmiri, that’s their nationality. They can apply for dual nationality but the country of your birth dictates your nationality.

That’s not quite true @Bluntness100. There are relatively few countries with unrestricted birthright citizenship. Pakistan happens to be one of them so someone born in the Pakistani regions of Kashmir would be automatically Pakistani but someone born in Srinagar, JL’s place of birth, would not be automatically entitled to Indian citizenship unless they qualified via a parent.

Actually, there aren't all that many countries where just being born there entitles you to that nationality. I'm not sure whether or not India is one of them. Many countries have other requirements for a baby to claim citizenship in addition to place of birth.

Untrue Bluntness.

@JohnMiddleNameRedactedSwanson

That’s not quite true *@Bluntness100*. There are relatively few countries with unrestricted birthright citizenship. Pakistan happens to be one of them so someone born in the Pakistani regions of Kashmir would be automatically Pakistani but someone born in Srinagar, JL’s place of birth, would not be automatically entitled to Indian citizenship unless they qualified via a parent.

Um we are actually talking about Kashmir. And the op didn’t say how long the parents were resident there or the person she’s talking about. Just their early child hood.

So yeah. True.

Ask yourself if it would be offensive for a person of Kashmiri parentage who was born in Britain to call themselves British.

I imagine no one would find this offensive.

Why is it offensive the other way round. Is it something to do with power imbalances?

@Bluntness100

Kashmir is not a country. It is a region, divided currently between India, Pakistan, and China.

Pre-independence, India did not administer its own citizenship laws. A person born in British India of British descent was British by nationality.

JL was a British Subject at birth, and became a British Subject, Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies with the 1948 Nationality Act. With the subsequent BNA81 she became a British Citizen. She would not have acquired Indian citizenship on Indian independence because by then she was living in the UK and wouldn't have met the requirements. If I remember correctly from my days in the Nationality Office, Spike Milligan on the other hand DID become an Indian citizen. Lots of interesting quirks in nationality law, but being born somewhere definitely does not confer nationality nearly as much as people think.

And nobody is English. Because it's a language, not a nationality.

JL's family had indeed been in India for generations, the documentary about her from a few years ago rather skated over her ancestors' roles over there, as well it might.

The country of your birth doesn't dictate your nationality except in a few countries ....

You can’t invade a country and then assume the nationality of that country

Tell that to the Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Normans etc

@Bluntness100

I don't think they are Kashmiri. Their parents are British, they themselves are therefore British citizens I assume. They didn't live in Kashmir for long. Their only connection is being born there. If British parents are working for 2 years in a country and have a child whilst there and then leave then the child can't reasonable call themselves as being of that country

This is legally and factually incorrect. If the child was born in Kashmiri, that’s their nationality. They can apply for dual nationality but the country of your birth dictates your nationality.

It depends where you are born, Pakistan does have birth right citizenship, India doesn’t. The area Joanna is from is in India, plus when she was born the children of British citizens weren’t legally able to be Indian. In India at least one parent must be an Indian citizen for a child to be legally an Indian citizen, India also doesn’t allow dual citizenship. India does however allow OCI which is similar to leave to remain, this however isn’t available to anyone who has had Pakistani or Bandladeshi citizenship, or someone who has a parent, grandparent or great grandparent who is/was a Pakistani or Bangladeshi citizen.

Kashmir is a region, a bit like Yorkshire being a region. Some Kashmiri people also have Kashmiri (well Dardic) ethnicity, but many don’t. So Kashmiri can be their ethnicity or their sense of identity (in the same way someone may identify as being from Yorkshire over being from England), but Kashmiri is not a nationality.

I suppose it’s about what constitutes identity. There’s more to being from a place than being born there.

My son was born in Liverpool but he never really lived there past infancy and neither of us are Scousers, although his dad still lives in the city.
He doesn’t have the accent, or the lived experience of growing up there. He’s not really a Scouser, is he?

He was born in Liverpool but he’s not a Scouser.

(Full disclosure: When he’s there he calls himself a wool 😆)

You're talking through your arse, Bluntness.

cherry ... because if you’re talking about a specific person or situation why not just say so? Just seems like you’re trying to create drama for no reason. Would have been more appropriate to just say ‘watched JL .. what do you think about ...’

Ok....so if someone was born in England but their parents are Pakistani, are they not English? Where would it end?

On the subject of Spike Milligan, I have a very vague recollection that 30 or 40 years ago the rules on British citizenship changed and he was no longer actually entitled to British citizenship because his parents and grandparents had all been born in India.

If their parents have indefinite leave, they would be British.

@Fifthtimelucky

On the subject of Spike Milligan, I have a very vague recollection that 30 or 40 years ago the rules on British citizenship changed and he was no longer actually entitled to British citizenship because his parents and grandparents had all been born in India.

Yes, that's right. He started the naturalization process but there was, iirc, some hoohah because the final step in acquiring citizenship is taking an oath of allegiance and he refused.