Is this offensive?

[cherryolives]

For a white person who is British but born in Kashmir to describe themselves as Kashmiri?

@itallworkedouthorribly

I think if you have a passport, you're from that country.

I was born in Pakistan, I lived there until I was eight, I’m ethnically Gilgit, I do not have a Pakistani passport. Does this mean I’m not from Pakistan?

Simon

Do you want to be? Do you feel like you are?

Drill down deep enough and every bloody utterance is offensive to someone.
Best to let those who take offence crack on.

I find you and your friend offensive. Your problem is clearly that she has white skin.

@itallworkedouthorribly

Simon

Do you want to be? Do you feel like you are?

Why have you chosen to not answer my question?

@itallworkedouthorribly

I think if you have a passport, you're from that country.

No, not in many many cases! I know people with British passports, born in Netherlands to Somalian parents. They call themselves Somalian.

I think if she had been raised in Kashmir, taking part in Kashmiri culture, mixing with Kashmiri people, speaking the language then it would be acceptable for her to call herself Kashmiri.

But most British people in India during the Raj were very clear on the divide between themselves and Indian people, so it's unlikely JL would have the same "lived experience" that would unite her with the average Kashmiri person.

I once met someone who described herself as "white Indian" because her grandmother was born in India. That did make me a little .

I find you and your friend offensive. Your problem is clearly that she has white skin.

That’s quite the accusation. JL didn’t even live in India for a year, she moved to England before her first birthday. Seems weird to me at least she would claim she’s Kashmiri, rather than just say she was born there.

My son was born in England to Scots parents. Has lived most of his life in Scotland. He is Scottish. If he'd been born in a stable would that make him horse? The actual location of birth has little to do with either ethnicity or nationality.

@stablefeet my BIL was born in France to one British parent (no french parents) and loved there until 16. Are you honestly saying he isn't French? He is. He has a French passport, french nationality.

Can we put all this into context with the actual conversation

She went to visit women in Bradford who had set up some communal allotments. One lady was showing her some of their crops , one of which was "kashmiri spinach" JL got excited and said "im Kasmiri, thats my spinach"

Was Kipling Indian? He probably felt so. Its about how someone feels. Weird how if you feel like a woman, it's offensive (and in Australia shortly illegal) to question that, but someone feeling like a kashmiri needs a strong enough reason.

This thread is quite a good indication of how little general knowledge many people have of the end of the Raj and the long-term impact on the region of Kashmir in particular. I have always thought it a bit strange that in my own education we spent an awful lot of time on the Aztecs and the Incas but nothing on this. It should ring a bell that a person born in Srinagar in 1946 was entering an incredibly sensitive time and place.

She went to visit women in Bradford who had set up some communal allotments. One lady was showing her some of their crops , one of which was "kashmiri spinach" JL got excited and said "im Kasmiri, thats my spinach"

This really was all that was said.

Would you not clarify the difference?

I’m Kashmiri by birth but I was raised in England.

Why does it matter?

I think in some cases it’s complicated by the colonial legacy; it’s very different being brought up in “an outpost of empire” as part of a British family who were no doubt set apart as “masters” rather than integrating with the wider community than eg being born in Britain to Kashmiri parents. It feels a bit odd for Brits to force their culture on and oppress another nation and then later try to claim that national identity as their own.

But as others have pointed out, identity is often not straightforward; I’m half Scottish but grew up in England and definitely feel more English although support Scotland in sport and will definitely apply for a passport if applicable! My DH is half Polish but has no family there are only visited a couple of times and really doesn’t feel much connection at all.

My cousin is British, born to British parents in Japan! I have never heard him describe himself as Japanese!!

I expect some people will indeed find it offensive but most won't.

Well the only way you can judge if something is offensive or not, is to see how many people are offended by it. It's very arbitrary.

A more appropriate question could be, is it accurate? The answer to that really depends on the Kashmiri laws and whether they recognise "birthright citizenship" (i.e. that you become a citizen of that country automatically by way of being born there).

It's similar to the idea of if your mum is on holiday in another country whilst pregnant and you are born in that country, can you say that is your nationality, even if you come home to another county after the holiday?

Usually you probably wouldn't, but in some cases you could - it depends on the country. They all have different laws.

It really isn’t a minefield, you’re choosing to treat someone differently due to the colour of their skin.

I'm not, my friend is. I didn't know about the Kalash people so thank you for that, I will do some reading as I am interested to know more.

Birthright citizenship has been a contentious issue recently, especially in the US (Trump has tried to ban it I think). For example people going to the US so that their child can be born there and be classed as American.

It's controversial but it is a thing.

@intheenddoesitreallymatter

Would you not clarify the difference?

I’m Kashmiri by birth but I was raised in England.

Because it wasnt a conversation about her birthplace, it was a joke about spinach If you actual watch the beginning of the programme, she refers to Uk as the country she now calls home.. She lived in Malaysia and HongKong before she came to boarding school in the UK

@Annoy

There are many British born with Asian ethnicity who would describe themselves as British... quite rightly so.

I don’t see how your situation is any different

This. Let's no have hypocrisy or double standards.

@TheIncredibleBookEatingManchot

I think if she had been raised in Kashmir, taking part in Kashmiri culture, mixing with Kashmiri people, speaking the language then it would be acceptable for her to call herself Kashmiri.

But most British people in India during the Raj were very clear on the divide between themselves and Indian people, so it's unlikely JL would have the same "lived experience" that would unite her with the average Kashmiri person.

I once met someone who described herself as "white Indian" because her grandmother was born in India. That did make me a little .

Absolutely spot on.

People seem to be missing the crucial point about the presence of the British Raj in India.
I’m desperately trying to find a present day equivalent that would help people understand why it is problematic.