Is this offensive?

[cherryolives]

For a white person who is British but born in Kashmir to describe themselves as Kashmiri?

I suppose it depends on her passport, settled status and her perception of her own heritage.

Many of her family and ancestors were born and lived in the region. However they were part of the British Raj, personally I think she should have been more sensitive - because of that British Raj heritage. Certainly her ancestors would have (at the time) very clear they were ‘British’ and not wanted to be considered Kashmiri .... therefore it is problematic.

I think it’s almost impossible to disentangle this from the wider context of the end of the British Raj and the effect that this had specifically on Kashmir as a result of the Partition.

I've heard of the place Kashmir. I've heard of people saying they are from Kashmir. But, apart from this instance I've only ever heard the term "Kashmiri" used to describe the ethnic group and when you look for that term on the internet the first definitions you arrive at are all describing the ethnic group.

I can very much understand why an ethnic Kashmiri would find a white woman who spent her childhood there as part of a foreign colonial ruling class describing herself as Kashmiri would be quite offensive.

@cherryolives Why are brown people awarded choice but not white people?

I suppose if you look hard enough you can find offence in anything. This is one of those times.

Do you disagree with Asian people who are born here calling themselves British?

Does it only offend you because they are white. You are offensive. Seems to be the case now if you are white you are offensive. What a brainwashed society.

Hmm I think it's because JL is of a different ethnicity to Kashmiris that this is causing offence.
DH has French nationality. He was born in France, french is his first language. However, neither of his parents were French, and he left France when he was three, moving to Britain.
He has dual nationality, and has lived in France as an adult for a time.
Is it ok if he says he's french?
Is it ok because he white skinned, and many french are white skinned that he says he's french?
People rarely question his 'britishness', presumably because he's white skinned.
His brother is far older, and was almost adult when they moved to Britain. Is he more french than DH?

My daughter was born and raised in The Netherlands but she's not Dutch. She's British - never had a Dutch passport and wouldn't be eligible for one (especially now, since Brexit). The geographical spot where you happened to be born (like Kashmir) doesn't confer the status of nationality on you. That's much more complex. I doubt that Joanna Lumley has an Indian passport or Indian citizenship, but I could be wrong. I don't think she should describe herself as Kashmiri. She could simply say she was born and raised there.

[quote SimonJT]@cherryolives Why are brown people awarded choice but not white people?[/quote]
It's not skin colour though is it, it's what your ethnic background is? If you are an ethnic Kashmiri you can describe yourself as Kashmiri. If you don't know the ethnic background of a person who appears that they may be from that ethnic origin it would be very rude to question it. It's more likely (but obviously not certain) that somebody who shares the physical appearance of a Kashmiri person is an ethnic Kashmiri than a person with white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes.

It's certainly a minefield.

It's more problematic because of the historic relationship between the UK and Kashmir. If you are from the 'oppressor' country it's at the very least insensitive to call yourself (in this case) Kashmiri however you feel/identify.

@TheSunshines

Does it only offend you because they are white. You are offensive. Seems to be the case now if you are white you are offensive. What a brainwashed society.

It doesn't offend me - it offends my friend who is a Kashmiri. Read my OP.

I don't see a problem with that. I consider someone of Indian heritage born in the UK to be British. It depends where you were born and how long you grew up there for and whether you genuinely identify as coming from there, rather than saying it as a point of novelty.

It ia difficult one. I was born in Manchester (proud to be Mancunian first and foremost) so say I am British, not English because I am not in my opinion. I would say British Pakistani (my dad was born in Pakistan)and tick this on forms but my family originate from Kashmir on both sides. My ancesters are from there, grandparents on mums side were born there, on dad's side great grandparents were born there and even further back.

The most important thing is how that person feels and if they are proud to be from Kashmir, consider the country a part of their identity and resonate with it then what does it matter to anyone else?

@JohnMiddleNameRedactedSwanson

I think it’s almost impossible to disentangle this from the wider context of the end of the British Raj and the effect that this had specifically on Kashmir as a result of the Partition.

Indeed. We can see this in people that live in Northern Ireland. Some see themselves as Irish, some as British. There's no way to separate out what people are in reality.

I do consider myself to be Kashmiri ethnically.

Just seen the rest of the updates. I don't think that I would classify someone as being Kashmiri if they just happened to be born there with no familial ties and grew up in the UK. I think that they are pushing it for novelty value. As to whether it is offensive? Well, not to me, but then I'm white British. Arguably if someone takes offense, then it is offensive.

I guess that the sensitivity arises because white people were in that area because they were part of an invading colonial power so it feels wrong for JL to continue to hijack that nationality long after colonialism has been called out as wrong. However on a personal level, if her family had been there for over 100 years before she was born then I can see why she would feel that her connection to Kashmir is more than simply an accident of birth.

Can depend tbh.
DS was born in Canada but DH and I are British and we came home a month after his birth, but as far as Canada goes, he is Canadian...that’s their take on it not ours necessarily.

Why is it your place, or your friends to question anybody though (regardless of whether they have physical traits you believe to confirm or deny your perception of ethnicity)? People who are determined to be offended are the people with the issue in this case. Why are they offended? It’s not a case of cultural misappropriation and a person in this situation clearly has strong ties and a lived experience relating to the country I just don’t get the offence and think people are quick to judge - that’s what makes it a minefield. I would just change the conversation as the end result is just more distancing of people.

@StepOutOfLine

Kashmiri isn't a nationality so you'd just have to say "I'm British but was born in Kashmir"

You're not automatically the nationality of many countries by virtue of birth. Ius soli v ius sanguinis.

Cornwall isn't a country but you can call yourself Cornish. By the same logic someone can call themselves Kashmiri.

It really isn’t a minefield, you’re choosing to treat someone differently due to the colour of their skin. Your comment is also quite ironic as you will see both pale skin, blue eyes green eyes and blond hair in the greater Kashmir region. The Kalash people are Dardic.

I’ve met Indian Kenyans who describe themselves as Indian. In this case I can’t see how it would be derogatory to make a statement of fact?

I think if you have a passport, you're from that country.

@SallyParkersMum

Of course not! If I was born in France then I'd be french... how is this any different?

No you wouldn't, not if your parents were British.

In that her intention is not to be rude or derogatory just convey information succinctly?