To think we have to accept that we need to use savings to fund care in old age

[LastDuchessFerrara]

My parents died before reaching old age but I'm now watching family and friends caring - in one form or another - for older relatives.

Many seem to be in denial about the fact that savings, pensions and, in some cases equity in their home, needs to be used to enable their relatives to continue to stay in their homes or go into care.

"But they've worked all their lives!" they cry in protest. Well, yes - and now that money needs to be used in their old age.

It's really focussed my mind on how any money I accumulate might not be spent on amazing holidays but paying for cleaners and carers.

I'd be interested in views but please can this not be a "boomer" bashing thread. I know plenty of impoverished old people and plenty of entitled non-boomers.

@AlwaysCheddar

If I get a stage where I don’t have a clue what planet I’m on, id rather someone put a pillow over my face than pay thousands on a grotty nursing home.

My FIL always felt this way. He died a couple of days ago, early 70s with advanced Alzheimers but never put a toe over the door of a home. Obviously we are all grieving but he would have been bloody thrilled to have gone now rather than go into care.

@RainingBatsAndFrogs

Part of the problem is that care homes charge different rates to self funded residents and LA.

My friend discovered that the proceeds of her Mum’s modest house was, in effect, subsidising the LA funded residents.

Same with my Dad. It’s not fair.

The risk in spending on your dc/deposits/holidays etc is that if you live longer than you thought or are diagnosed with a degenerative disease, you could be without. A balance is needed.

Boomer here. I agree with you.
Free social care would be wonderful but it’s completely unrealistic. Those who can pay should.

Yes lots of people say they won’t want their kids to care for them in old age but the reality is they often feel very differently when they are actually old and vulnerable and it’s a choice between being looked after by their children or by strangers.

As a PP has said, it’s choice that self funding buys you. If you are determined to leave your money to your family you can choose to take the cheapest possible options but I suspect few do. It’s a reality of life that the state cannot fund beautiful, high quality care and living accommodation for years for the elderly. If you do qualify then you are in a very poor state indeed.

I’m very pleased to have the security that we will be able to make that choice. There should be money left over for inheritance but nothing is guaranteed. My DMIL was in her home (£1600 a week) for five years, DFIL (£1800 a week for 2.5 years so far) and neither is unusual.

@Ontheroadtorecovery

Radio4rocks

The thing is not everyone has just pissed there money up the wall some people work hard all their lives for little money and just can't afford to save. I am well aware that this is how some ppl feel as I work in this area. The financial side is the most emotive thing for a lot of people and many older people feel that they paid their NI to cover this but sadly it doesn't. In Scotland it works differently so it would be interesting to see how they manage

Completely agree. This idea that there are good hardworking people who save and amass wealth, versus bad feckless ones who don't is so over simplistic. The amount of wealth you have in old age is dependent on so many factors; whether your hard work was done in a well paid job or not; whether you were fortunate enough to benefit from house price increases; the level of financial support you recieved from your own family including inheritance you may have recieved; whether you remain in the same partnership with a joint income; your health and ability to work; your pension....

I agree one glass, that doesn't seem fair at all but that is the system. My DM RIP couldn't stand the thought of that! But luckily with massive effort, we kept her at home. Families and elderly people need more support to stay at home if that is their wish, which it is for the majority. The average time in a nursing home is 2years..most with dementia regress massively on entering, understandably.

I guess it comes down to people's view on inheritance.

My parents have always been very vocal about how expensive care is and how it will likely use up their assets/savings.

I've never expected inheritance, my money is money I've earned and anything else I would never rely on.

So what's the point of them keeping all their savings? It can't go with them to the next life and they won't be holidaying at the age of needing intense expensive care.

I also hope my kids won't be living their lives waiting for inheritance.

If residential care were only available for those who could afford it and had savings you would see a lot of old women on the streets. Men marry older and have shorter life spans, so their care will eat up the family pot while their wives are relatively spry. Women are more likely to have been housewives, unpaid carers, working in part time and low paid jobs, subject to financial abuse than men. But yeah fuck them, let granny Ethel rot because her husband pissed his wages against the wall while she worked as a cleaner and cared for their 4/5/6 kids on her own and had the cheek to live to 84.

I think we should have state sponsored care which isn't run for profit and operates on NHS lines.

My best friend's DM recently died after a spell in a care home. You wouldnt have wished her death on your worst enemy.

It was unclear what the £700 per week - or whatever it was - was being spent on but it certainly wasn't for caring staff or decent facilities.

There are too many businesses and individuals making ££££ out of elderly care.

@LastDuchessFerrara

I know a lot of us say we'd rather top ourselves than face dementia or loss of independence or pay for a care home but very few actually do. It's like perspective changes with old age and humans cling on.

I had a relative with the early-onset type. It develops so quickly that many HCP don't realise what it is until the person needs full social care. At that point most people are usually too young to have the type of assets required for many years of care home fees, especially since they may still have dependents. My relative was barely middle aged with teenagers, considering how people are having children later in life there could well be a big problem lying ahead with dementia and longterm costs. Early-onset is still uncommon but it's not rare, people need to be aware that it can develop at any age and you may need to consider care by the time you're 60 (or even younger).

Personally, I can say that if I'm looking to be developing dementia without a doubt of what it is, I'd absolutely end my life. Especially if I'm younger, it's an utter waste of my own life, my family's, and of resources to live that way for years. I know if my relative had any idea before it was too late, they'd have made other 'arrangements' as well.

I’m with @AlwaysCheddar shoot me if I don’t know what’s going on or take me to Dignitas.
I’ve explicitly said that I don’t want my dh and dc looking after me in old age. I watched my dm care for my df until he passed away. Dm is still alive and db lives with her and cares for her (luckily he’s wfh), but she’s beginning to lose it

I’ve paid tax and ni all my working life. And just like everyone else I’ve also paid added tax on that tax when I use my money to buy things. And I worked my butt off. And I want my home and my money to go to my kids for their future. I don’t want to use all my hard work to pay for a shitty care home. Maybe I’ll transfer all my property and money to my kids name so local services can’t swindle it all away ? Think I’d rather a different end than sitting being fleeced in a care home.

I accepted long ago that any money my parents have will go on care charges and TBH that's fine. It doesn't seen right that DSis and I get a big inheritance at the expense of the taxpayer.

It did come as something of a shock to realise the same applies to money I have saved with DH, half of which will likely go on his care while he's still in his 50s.

@oneglassandpuzzled But why is it not fair? Do the essential workers who have spent their lives working in low-paid jobs not deserve decent quality care? Do I deserve better quality care than the admin assistant who works down the corridor from me simply because my hourly wage is twice as high as hers? Do I deserve better quality care than my tenants even though they are the ones currently paying my mortgage?

I don't work disproportionally hard. I'm lucky to have done well in school which enabled me to get a decent paid job. Then I had some further luck (inheritance) to get me on the property ladder. I fully expect to sell my home to pay for my care in old age and to help pay for the care of others who have not been so fortunate, and I have no problem with that.

Leakyradiator

I’ve paid tax and ni all my working life. And just like everyone else I’ve also paid added tax on that tax when I use my money to buy things. And I worked my butt off. And I want my home and my money to go to my kids for their future. I don’t want to use all my hard work to pay for a shitty care home. Maybe I’ll transfer all my property and money to my kids name so local services can’t swindle it all away ? Think I’d rather a different end than sitting being fleeced in a care home.“

That’s not how it works. Your tax and ni have paid for the services you and your family have already had.

@hammeringinmyhead

YANBU. My in-laws have a real bee in their bonnet about inheritance tax and I just think... I wouldn't worry too much about calculating it now; odds are at least one of your BTLs is going to have to fund care for one or both of you!

I'm not surprised that your PIL are worried about inheritance tax, it has to be paid before anything is inherited.

YANBU.

I don't understand why Teresa May's reforms were abandoned - of course they weren't popular but they were so necessary. Why if you have £££ in savings should that go to care fees but if you have £££ that can't be touched? It could easily be structured in a way you wouldn't have to sell your house or even that your partner/spouse wouldn't have to leave and the money was only taken during the inheritance process. I just don't understand why cash would be treated so differently to assets, there are ways to structure it so there is no short term hardship. Why should someone's children have a god-given right to inherit while the state pays for their parent's care?

I guess the only issue is how it creates perverse incentives - people who have been careful have to pay loads for their own care; people that have spent it all on holidays/material goods etc. will get it funded by the state...

And those saying 'I already pay tax and NI' - it isn't enough. The NHS is basically collapsing and we have a social care crisis - there just isn't enough money for the current system to work.

In my opinion, one of the consequences of this pandemic will be that people take control of their end of life care. We've seen people separated from their loved ones for a year.
People will make provision for end of life services at home. Companies and apps will spring up supplying oxygen, CPAP and hospital beds on demand.
Apps for carers (similar to Uber and Deliveroo) where you choose a carer by availability and star rating.

Pharmacists will become even slicker at online orders and delivery.

Fuckingcrustybread what is the lower limit for inheritance tax though? In Ireland it's 300K for an individual so most won't pay any inheritance tax!

@Leakyradiator

I’ve paid tax and ni all my working life. And just like everyone else I’ve also paid added tax on that tax when I use my money to buy things. And I worked my butt off. And I want my home and my money to go to my kids for their future. I don’t want to use all my hard work to pay for a shitty care home. Maybe I’ll transfer all my property and money to my kids name so local services can’t swindle it all away ? Think I’d rather a different end than sitting being fleeced in a care home.

But the problem is that as a country the state can't pay for elderly care needs from existing tax revenues, unless they made cuts elsewhere.

If people want the state to fund their care, they need to accept higher taxes elsewhere. Pick your poison - more income tax? annual land tax? capital gains tax on residential property?

A huge amount of the wealth in this country is tied up in property, so that's going to be the main source for funding better social care. In the long term, the choice isn't between you paying or the state paying, it's between whether you release the funds yourself & then choose how it is spent on the care you need, or whether there is a blanket taxation reform which hopefully leads to improvements across the sector.

@Fuckingcrustybread I don't understand your point?

I'm saying they get angry about the amount that their children will have to pay, based on their current assets. They're early 60s. Whereas I expect they won't own all of their properties by the time they die so it's not worth getting worked up about yet. See also capital gains tax.

@Leakyradiator

I’ve paid tax and ni all my working life. And just like everyone else I’ve also paid added tax on that tax when I use my money to buy things. And I worked my butt off. And I want my home and my money to go to my kids for their future. I don’t want to use all my hard work to pay for a shitty care home. Maybe I’ll transfer all my property and money to my kids name so local services can’t swindle it all away ? Think I’d rather a different end than sitting being fleeced in a care home.

So transfer all of your assets to your children. You will have to take it on trust that they don't then need the money from their (your) home for their own kids. They may well make you homeless, despatch you to a state run home, and sell their (your) house. Good luck.