To think we have to accept that we need to use savings to fund care in old age

[LastDuchessFerrara]

My parents died before reaching old age but I'm now watching family and friends caring - in one form or another - for older relatives.

Many seem to be in denial about the fact that savings, pensions and, in some cases equity in their home, needs to be used to enable their relatives to continue to stay in their homes or go into care.

"But they've worked all their lives!" they cry in protest. Well, yes - and now that money needs to be used in their old age.

It's really focussed my mind on how any money I accumulate might not be spent on amazing holidays but paying for cleaners and carers.

I'd be interested in views but please can this not be a "boomer" bashing thread. I know plenty of impoverished old people and plenty of entitled non-boomers.

@SonjaMorgan

State funded elderly care is unsustainable as is the state pension. I'm not sure what provisions will be available in the years to come but I wish we talked more openly about it.

You may as well argue that healthcare free at the point of use & state education are also unsustainable and we can move to a US system where if you are not insured, you don't treated - other than charity.

This is the the worlds 5th richest country, yet somehow we accept having to sell all we have to pay for care, ASC needs about 4 to 5 billion per year to provide free care to all, yet we can't afford it..... but we can spend 200 billion of HS2 and another 200 billion on Trident....

CV has shown that if we want too, we can afford quite a lot of things we were always told we couldn't have.......

I completely agree that I wouldn't want to end up in a care home but I think your view changes as you get older ... it is very easy to say "I'll go to Dignitas" or "put a pillow over my head" etc until it is you, or your loved one, in that situation. My DGM always said the same but, sadly, she did end up in a care home (not a horrendous one). Neither my DM or I would have been able to "let her die

I agree. Its nonsense. People say this stuff when the scenario of dementia is a million miles away.

I dont know of a single person who went to dignitas or killed themselves when they got dementia because the entire point of dementia is that your cognitive thinking skills are impacted so often you arent even aware that you are ill in the early stages! Then there is denial of being ill, and by the time it has progressed you dont have the mental capacity to plot your own demise.

People also talk so casually about getting others to "put them out of their misery" as if relatives can EASILY just murder their elderly relatives and feel fine with it- its utterly ridiculous expecting someone to actually murder you without a single thought to the emotional or legal consequences. Can you imagine the public reaction to someone who smothered their elderly nan to death- they'd be labelled a monster in the press. So bloody ridiculous- if was that easy there would be thousands of elderly people flying to dignitas and thousands bumping off elderly relatives.

It would be sensible, like others I'd rather be dead then spend 10 years existing in a care home.
Hopefully dying with dignity and euthanasia will be available to allow people choose.

[quote hammeringinmyhead]@Fuckingcrustybread

I know how it works. We have recently lost 5 grandparents between us.

I was generally commenting that they expect they will still hold all their assets on death when it's likely they will need to pay for care for one or both of them.[/quote]
I'm sorry for your losses, that's a large amount of people to lose 💐It's not surprising that you understand how Inheritance Tax works Ime not many people do understand.

@Fuckingcrustybread
Then you get a loan. HMRC aren't fools, they know people will evade the tax otherwise.

The problem is it feels unfair that someone who lives vicariously and spends all their money in their younger years ends up quite likely to get care funded by the state. This means people feel penalised for being financially prudent.

I work in social care and the whole system sucks.

The amount of families who have managed to get the house signed over to them before care is needed is massive.

I've just place two unrelated people in the same home. One has to have a deferred payment agreement to fund their care because they own their own home, one is fully funded by us because their home is now mysteriously owned by their daughter.

If you know how to play the system you can get away with it and the tax payer has to pay.

If you ask me it's not worth having significant savings as you'll have to pay for care with it. You might as well enjoy it and then be funded by the state when you need care.

The amount of families who have managed to get the house signed over to them before care is needed is massive

Thats called deprivation of assets though and Ive known councils go after people legally who do this to deliberately avoid paying for care. they WILL pursue it in many cases

I can’t tell you how many times my best friend told me that her mum had requested to have a pillow put over her face if she ever got dementia.

Her mum now has Alzheimer’s and has been in a care home for the past 5 years. She’s not even 80 yet and in good health so she could be there for another decade.

@Fuckingcrustybread I do absolutely agree it's a complex process to deal with when you're grieving. We have both myself and my husband down as joint executors for our parents so the less devastated one can help sort it all!

In our case if there ends up being care costs I don't think there will be IHT to pay anyway, so I wish they'd stop stressing about it.

The flippant “I’ve told my family to smother me with a pillow/push me off a cliff/I’d rather be dead than live in a care home” irritates me.

You don’t really mean it, and if you do, start saving your £10k for Dignitas and register your interest with them now for the future, while you’re of sound mind. It’s a lot cheaper than a care home if you really mean it.

My own dad said it all the time, a blasé “smother me with a pillow” and then took great offence when I emailed him the link for Dignitas.

The problem with saying you'd rather die is that if you're saying it, you're not yet at that stage and once you get there you can't organise it. There's no way I'm putting a pillow over DH's face.

I think people should pay but also there should be a cap. From experience, paying £1000 a week for care for someone who has said their whole life they don't want to end up in care but can't do anything else as a living will isn't a legally recognised document is a bitter experience for all involved.

It baffles me when people say they shouldn't have to pay for their care because they 'worked hard' and want to leave their house to their kids. For a start, for houses that were bought 30+ years ago, prices have gone up so much that you haven't worked hard for most of that money at all. And more importantly, if people want it to be state funded for all then taxes will need to rise and itll be everyone else's kids that have to pay for it.

I'm actually all for higher taxes and better public services and benefits myself but the social care case always makes me think twice, because it does feel unfair that itll be my generation that pay the higher taxes while many (not all ofc) people requiring the care sit on piles of property wealth.

The housing crisis has caused so much inequality everywhere!

I also watched an interesting doc (on YouTube I think) about AI and robots in the hospitality industry. Maybe care robots in peoples homes is the answer!

My MIL has a diagnosis of Alzheimer’s. She apparently has capacity to refuse to go in a home where she would be safer, but what she doesn’t have capacity to realise is that she’s paying for two carers a day to come into her home as she’s above the threshold. She frequently doesn’t let them in.

@SingingLoud

The flippant “I’ve told my family to smother me with a pillow/push me off a cliff/I’d rather be dead than live in a care home” irritates me.

You don’t really mean it, and if you do, start saving your £10k for Dignitas and register your interest with them now for the future, while you’re of sound mind. It’s a lot cheaper than a care home if you really mean it.

My own dad said it all the time, a blasé “smother me with a pillow” and then took great offence when I emailed him the link for Dignitas.

Exactly! If you really meant it, you'd start planning it early and if you dont mean it then why bloody say it? suicide is not something to be referred to so flippantly

CV has shown that if we want too, we can afford quite a lot of things we were always told we couldn't have

But we can't afford it. We are borrowing and using quantative easing at an alarming rate.

Thats called deprivation of assets though and Ive known councils go after people legally who do this to deliberately avoid paying for care. they WILL pursue it in many cases
It might be deprivation of assets,might not be
Have known literally 100s of people through work who have done it and got care free

@user1487194234

Thats called deprivation of assets though and Ive known councils go after people legally who do this to deliberately avoid paying for care. they WILL pursue it in many cases It might be deprivation of assets,might not be Have known literally 100s of people through work who have done it and got care free

I guess maybe the time frame is important?

I know of two people the council have chased for this and won.
I think its kind of shitty tbh- we wouldnt think kindly of someone doing this to get other state benefits so why is this ok? with people living so long now, if the government had to pay for everyone who did this, there would be literally no money for anything else.

I didn't say I thought ir was ok ,I don't particularly, but it happens all the time ,

The whole system disincentives saving and self responsibility. Perhaps if care costs were based on average income over a lifetime rather than savings at the time of need it would mean that those who are irresponsible would find themselves forced to think ahead.

don't mind me I'm having a bad day - wouldn't really want to leave a person on the street just because they've led an utterly irresponsible and decadent lifestyle

But some days it does make me want to just go out and spend the lot right now on expensive holidays, perfume, meals out, spa days and ice cream (lots and lots and lots of ice cream).

Can I come with you for some of the ice-cream!?

@toconclude sorry but you’re wrong!! They’re not paying absolutely thousands of pounds and having to sell a property are they?!
If they’ve lived in social housing they paid a smaller rent and got all of their repairs done. Unlike those living in their own homes. So I don’t think that using up their state pension bar £30 actually compares tbh!!

@Toorapid

The problem with saying you'd rather die is that if you're saying it, you're not yet at that stage and once you get there you can't organise it. There's no way I'm putting a pillow over DH's face.

Doesn’t need to be as dramatic as that though. My Nan lived a good life until she was in her 80s and broke her hip. She then went on to have numerous operations, pacemakers fitted, treated for every chest infection her final years were miserable and even when she tried to refuse was talked into treatment prolonging her life. Her final years are absolutely the opposite of any life I would want. I want to live a natural life span and being kept going until my late 90s is beyond that.

Whilst I may not be able to get someone to end my life I can certainly make a living will setting out what treatment should be stopped and when. I’d rather die of old age with a chest infection or heart failure than be constantly treated to prolong life for no reason. If I’m at the point I need to be in full time care then I will have lived my life and prolonging it further would not be in my interest and not what I want.

I find it interesting how we all pretty much support a social system which pays for free health, free education, free housing, UC, child benefit, etc etc etc, until those people who need it get old. Then it is, not fair that society helps pay for their care.

We pay taxes, a lot, as DH earns a good wage. We also pay for our own healthcare, education, house, etc etc. We don't qualify for child benefit. That's fine, we don't expect a rebate. We will also get a pension, which we will pay tax on, because (hopefully) it will be on the higher side. We also don't expect society to pay for our old age care. Why does becoming old, mean you aren't expected to pay for yourselves if you can? I just don't get the difference.