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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why religion is declining in Britain

999 replies

Jackieweaver2024 · 09/02/2021 21:45

Just that really I would be interested to hear everyone’s opinions?

OP posts:
tanguero · 10/02/2021 21:37

I'm still struggling to comprehend the vile and inhumane way that the Catholic Church has dealt with young single mums. And not that long ago either.

My own Catholic, single mother - was 50 years after I had been born, still unable to bring herself to speak about the way she had been treated. Aged 5, when on my first day of school, she took me to the local Catholic Primary School, the Nuns turned me and my mother away at the gate.

LastTrainEast · 10/02/2021 21:45

@Ginfordinner

It makes me morally superior to someone who worships a god that boasts of being a mass murderer of children.

Which god is that?
I doubt that the people of faith that I know worship a murderer?

Why are all people who believe in a God tarred with the same brush?

There are plenty of evil atheists around, so why not tar them all with the same brush?

No, I'm not religious. I just don't make sweeping statements.

Well you have an excuse not being religious yourself, but the god of the bible boasts of how he kills the innocent. I expect the people of faith that you know get their theology from hymns and Christmas movies. Hardly anyone reads the bible any more.

Which is good of course and eventually there'll be no one left who even pretends to believe.

Seriously even if you're not a believer you must have heard the more common stories. How about the Plagues of Eqypt where god kills the firstborn in every house because their Pharaoh disobeyed him?

I expect you heard of The Great Flood, but they would have concentrated on the cute animals and not the small corpses in the water.

Bowlerhats · 10/02/2021 21:52

@DNHandTNS

I'm not complaining, but pointing out that some people will be quick to criticize and won't do anything to support their community, but will feel entitled to support when they need it. The same people who say faith is rubbish and the church doesn't do anything will be the same people who cry all over their vicar/priest/whoever. That's life.
You see this is what I find is a common statement from a lot of religious people. The assumption that those who criticise also do nothing for their community.

I am certain that I do more than most for charity and for my community, I am not perfect but I am a decent and kind person.

And it wouldn’t cross my mind to look to my vicar for support, neither have I had my children christened or got married in a church.

People can be pretty amazing and also not be religious (not saying I am amazing btw)

Serin · 10/02/2021 22:14

I grew up in a religious household and worked in a religious school for a while. Some of the nastiest and most toxic people I have ever met have been either vicars, priests, or their hangers on.

Some examples:
The priest who asked a whole congregation to pray for my mental health issues (I haven't got MH issues, other than I didn't hang on his every word).

The "famous" priest who put his hand in my face and boomed "not now woman" when I said Hello.

The bishops assistant who asked me to "move that" and pointed to the 6 year old child in a wheelchair whom I was looking after.

The hospital chaplain who I approached in a professional capacity to support a dying Covid patient, who told me that there was nothing they could do as they were furloughed 🙄 and despite having willing members of staff in our unit we shouldn't attempt to pray with the patient as we weren't trained to do so......right, so a piece of paper trumps a dying persons last wishes?

The school mum who bitched about everyone and everyones children (even down to how she wouldn't have certain children to play as they had "common" names) and is now a vicar.

The vicar who charged us £1000 to inter our family members ashes, even though this family member had donated many thousands of pounds to his church previously. Service literally took 10mins. Not a bad rate of pay really, requested cash too.

Yeah, I'm glad to be free of them.

Therainisback · 10/02/2021 22:16

Can I just say that I've really enjoyed this thread. Some very thought-provoking posts both for & against (& a few brainless onesHmm
There have been a lot of posts I wanted to respond to.
If work is quiet tomorrow I shall attempt to do soGrin

For the record I am a Christian with agnostic wobbles

jennytheonionslayer · 10/02/2021 22:20

To answer your original question OP, people have no need of a deity anymore.

The whole concept is superfluous.

I have attended events and heard Professor Dawkins speak about the need for critical thinking, but even the masses whom aren't motivated in this way are still exposed to the pop culture ridicule of theism.

Ginfordinner · 10/02/2021 22:26

Some of the nastiest and most toxic people I have ever met have been either vicars, priests, or their hangers on

That doesn't make all religious people nasty and toxic. This just isn't a valid argument.

TableFlowerss · 10/02/2021 22:30

@DNHandTNS

How two faced that the same people on here criticizing churches and running down "stupid" people for believing "nonsense" are going to be all nicey nicey to their local Priest/Vicar/Minister when they suddenly need to plan a funeral. I bet then they'll appreciate support then. How convenient.
Many people don’t use a church/priest/vicar etc... these days. They chose a non religious ceremony in a none religious place, such as the crematorium.

I suspect as time goes on, less people will need churches for funerals. Say the average 80 year old dies, there’s more chance of them being religious than their grandchildren’s generation. I suspect many of the religious funerals are because that’s what the deceased wanted, as oppose to the family.

LastTrainEast · 10/02/2021 22:38

"That doesn't make all religious people nasty and toxic. This just isn't a valid argument." but remember the claim is that they are more moral than non-believers because they have god.

"Honest, god-fearing Christians"

"Good Christian familes"

"A Christian country" eg "not like those heathen countries."

and so on ad nauseam.

I can find you Christians claiming that atheists only pretend not to believe in god so we can sin. (I think they mean fornicate. You know how obsessed the Christian god is with sex)

LastTrainEast · 10/02/2021 22:40

.. and hair. I think Jehovah was a hairdresser in a previous life.

Dustyyy · 10/02/2021 22:45

Bible stories are ridiculous (Noah’s ark anyone?). I don’t understand how anyone can believe that nonsense and worship a god who allows children to die of cancer.

Happyinheels · 10/02/2021 22:47

Because that's exactly what it is in many cases - 'religion' organised, outdated, judgemental, hypocritical... in many cases, not all. But people can be 'good people' without religion. People do kind and good things every day. And with so much bad stuff in the world it's hard to believe in this one true God. Also, 'religion' has had so much bad press and bad examples of 'good Christian people' (used Christian as an example).

gvdlyfoib · 10/02/2021 23:00

@Babdoc

Congregation at my own parish church has been growing, OP, and the church of Scotland has had women priests for over 50 years, and even a couple of female Moderators (national leader of the church assembly), so accusations by PPs of misogyny don’t apply. Our online services have been viewed by people outwith our own parish as well. The church is one of the biggest providers of social care/charity/ministry to the disadvantaged in the country. And dismissing Christians as believers in “sky fairies” is an insult to the millions of us (including me) who have direct personal experience of the presence of God.
Righ, because you never insult atheists.
Wearywithteens · 10/02/2021 23:01

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Vivenne · 10/02/2021 23:03

I'm glad it is.

ccipher · 10/02/2021 23:05

@Wearywithteens

Great thread to rile up the hate for the Christians there - well done OP! Hmm

To all the posters who’ve done the usual condescending stuff about sky fairies, imaginary friends, people of faith are thick/weak, that people of faith are all homophobic nazis and the church us totally irrelevant today etc I would just say that a third of British state primary schools are still owned and maintained by the church (and were set up by the church) for the benefit of local communities, British law and constitutional apparatus has largely evolved from Christian thinking and values, and the church is responsible for (and funds) significant voluntary work in some of the most disadvantaged areas - providing food banks, toddler groups, outreach for the elderly etc.

I just wish people would remember that when they are being so disparaging. Some of the congregation at my church, who are intelligent, gentle and kind people, some elderly, give up so much of their time and money to work for a more equal and better world. They are not strident evangelists who judge others. True Christians recognise that we are all flawed and our job is hold each other up.

OP didn't mention Christians. Your persecution complex is showing.
VinylDetective · 10/02/2021 23:06

Righ, because you never insult atheists

Do you know what? On all the threads about religion I’ve read here, all full of insults, rudeness and contempt for people with religious belief, I’ve never once seen an atheist insulted. Not once.

VinylDetective · 10/02/2021 23:08

OP didn't mention Christians. Your persecution complex is showing

Don’t be disingenuous. The whole thread’s about Christianity.

Flipflops85 · 10/02/2021 23:09

I never insult atheists. One of my best friends is Atheist and she’s awesome. In fact, I don’t ever recall sitting down with Christian friends, and us saying oooh yeah, let’s have a good slanging match about how stupid Atheists are. Why would we? It’s just weird.

Dustyyy · 10/02/2021 23:14

I don’t hate Christians at all. I do think their religion is baffling and illogical. The whole crucifixion/ drinking blood is a bit creepy too.

MissingLinker · 10/02/2021 23:15

If I remember correctly, in the 2011 census, something like 52% of people in the UK claimed to be Christian, while only 6% went to church with any regularity.
Now, there will of course be people who, due to living very far away from churches or being too ill to get out or working funny hours will be unable to attend church. And there will be people who pray at home/ think churches are idolatry etc.
But I think it's quite safe to say that the remaining 46% mostly belong to the category of "I don't believe in it/never gave it much thought but I quite like Christmas". I mean, if I believed in an all powerful God capable of damning me for eternity, I'd bother turning up at least occasionally.

I think, often, the religiosity of the past is overstated. A lot of people seem to have an idea that, until 1960, virtually everyone went to church and believed in God. I've certainly met people who believe this. In reality, while people declaring themselves outright Atheists probably wasn't common (save for certain academic circles), plenty of people weren't ardent believers, even if it was mostly through apathy than anything else.
However, even if individuals didn't believe in God, the official line was still that Britain was a Christian country and the church retained their power and influence respectively. But the church is increasingly incompatible with people's own beliefs. Over generations, you've had more and more people break away from it as they've been offered a more liberal, appealing alternative.

I do not, myself, believe in God. My family's background could be described as belonging to that unofficial but wide reaching branch of Catholicism whose primary aim seems to be that you never, ever, ever turn to Protestantism. Anything beyond that was a bit half arsed.
I did, as an adolescent, spend quite a lot of time with more traditional Catholics who, though some of what they came out with was questionable to say the least, were very kind to me and provided me with a stable environment which I hadn't had with my parents.
So my own experience of Catholicism has probably been more positive than most. (Probably also helped by the fact that I went to school with a lot of Evangelists, Pentecostals and Calvinists, who made Catholicism look really quite benign). Despite the atrocities committed by the Catholic church, I have a certain, if vague, loyalty towards it. If I were to go to church, I'll go to a Catholic one.

So I know there are good religious people. I know that there are incredibly intelligent religious people. But my perception of them as generally good and intelligent is challenged when I see them tying themselves in knots to explain why an omni benevolent, omnipotent God lets children die of Leukemia before, almost without fail, saying that none of us can truly understand God.

Because a lot of it is not just outdated, it's illogical. And saying "But you can't prove that God doesn't exist" is a piss poor argument. I can't infallibly prove that unicorns don't exist. They might just be really hard to spot. Or, better yet, they might exist in a way in which no human can truly understand, have incredible powers which they use in ways we can't hope to understand, and love us in ways we can only begin to imagine, though it does seem to involve quite a lot of terminally ill children. But, hey ho, who are we to question the unicorns.

lazylinguist · 10/02/2021 23:17

Do you know what? On all the threads about religion I’ve read here, all full of insults, rudeness and contempt for people with religious belief, I’ve never once seen an atheist insulted. Not once.

That's probably because atheists don't generally take arguments against their point of view as insults, whereas Christians often do. Christians tend to regard their opinions as sacred truths. Atheists' views are simply the absence of faith, so they don't tend to be so sensitive about them. If somebody says that my atheism is utter bollocks and that I am stupid and naïve for not believing in god... so what? I am not in the least bit insulted!

GeorgiaGirl52 · 10/02/2021 23:18

I once heard a sermon which talked about this. The preacher said the worst thing that happened to Christianity was when it became legal and supported by the state. He said Christianity should not be too "easy"... it should require sacrifice to make it important. Even if it was not being allowed to live in certain areas or being discriminated against in terms of educational opportunities, promotions, bank loans, etc.

TableFlowerss · 10/02/2021 23:20

@MissingLinker

If I remember correctly, in the 2011 census, something like 52% of people in the UK claimed to be Christian, while only 6% went to church with any regularity. Now, there will of course be people who, due to living very far away from churches or being too ill to get out or working funny hours will be unable to attend church. And there will be people who pray at home/ think churches are idolatry etc. But I think it's quite safe to say that the remaining 46% mostly belong to the category of "I don't believe in it/never gave it much thought but I quite like Christmas". I mean, if I believed in an all powerful God capable of damning me for eternity, I'd bother turning up at least occasionally.

I think, often, the religiosity of the past is overstated. A lot of people seem to have an idea that, until 1960, virtually everyone went to church and believed in God. I've certainly met people who believe this. In reality, while people declaring themselves outright Atheists probably wasn't common (save for certain academic circles), plenty of people weren't ardent believers, even if it was mostly through apathy than anything else.
However, even if individuals didn't believe in God, the official line was still that Britain was a Christian country and the church retained their power and influence respectively. But the church is increasingly incompatible with people's own beliefs. Over generations, you've had more and more people break away from it as they've been offered a more liberal, appealing alternative.

I do not, myself, believe in God. My family's background could be described as belonging to that unofficial but wide reaching branch of Catholicism whose primary aim seems to be that you never, ever, ever turn to Protestantism. Anything beyond that was a bit half arsed.
I did, as an adolescent, spend quite a lot of time with more traditional Catholics who, though some of what they came out with was questionable to say the least, were very kind to me and provided me with a stable environment which I hadn't had with my parents.
So my own experience of Catholicism has probably been more positive than most. (Probably also helped by the fact that I went to school with a lot of Evangelists, Pentecostals and Calvinists, who made Catholicism look really quite benign). Despite the atrocities committed by the Catholic church, I have a certain, if vague, loyalty towards it. If I were to go to church, I'll go to a Catholic one.

So I know there are good religious people. I know that there are incredibly intelligent religious people. But my perception of them as generally good and intelligent is challenged when I see them tying themselves in knots to explain why an omni benevolent, omnipotent God lets children die of Leukemia before, almost without fail, saying that none of us can truly understand God.

Because a lot of it is not just outdated, it's illogical. And saying "But you can't prove that God doesn't exist" is a piss poor argument. I can't infallibly prove that unicorns don't exist. They might just be really hard to spot. Or, better yet, they might exist in a way in which no human can truly understand, have incredible powers which they use in ways we can't hope to understand, and love us in ways we can only begin to imagine, though it does seem to involve quite a lot of terminally ill children. But, hey ho, who are we to question the unicorns.

NRFT but clocked this -

Superb post! Hit nail and head!

Ginfordinner · 10/02/2021 23:23

@lazylinguist

Do you know what? On all the threads about religion I’ve read here, all full of insults, rudeness and contempt for people with religious belief, I’ve never once seen an atheist insulted. Not once.

That's probably because atheists don't generally take arguments against their point of view as insults, whereas Christians often do. Christians tend to regard their opinions as sacred truths. Atheists' views are simply the absence of faith, so they don't tend to be so sensitive about them. If somebody says that my atheism is utter bollocks and that I am stupid and naïve for not believing in god... so what? I am not in the least bit insulted!

But Lazylinguist is right. I'm not religious, but there have been a lot of insults hurled at anyone who has any kind of religious beliefe, and none at atheists.

An awful lot of atheists on here seem to claim the moral high ground because they don't believe in "fairy stories".

I assume these same people don't do the tooth fairy and Father Christmas?