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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Midwives told to stop using terms such as 'breastfeeding' and 'breastmilk'

940 replies

MissMoped · 09/02/2021 21:00

because it’s not gender inclusive language, I believe with particular reference to the transexual debate.

This is at Brighton and Sussex nhs trust btw, good to know NHS money is being spent wisely btw, poring over the “incorrect” use of language.

The word “mother” apparently should not be used on its own; instead “mother or birthing parent” (um, isn’t that a mother?).

Breast milk and breastfeeding is to be replace by “breast/chest milk” or “milk from the feeding parent”. “Woman” should be replaced with “woman or person”.

Gobsmacked.

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NiceGerbil · 09/02/2021 22:47

I know that 7 days. I've just been on the NHS thread posting about my extreme displeasure in no uncertain words.

EG with the cervical cancer charity 'people with cervixes' the majority of posters said why not say women and other people with cervixes to be clear and inclusive.

The same applies here. Pregnant women and others who are pregnant. I'm not sure fussed. This is about being sensitive to those who really react against being called women. Remember that there is a cohort of girls who have been subject to CSA who ID as not female.

Inclusion is fine. Women and. Girls and.

Erasing female/ woman/ girl is not at all.

MissMoped · 09/02/2021 22:48

Just seen your post oops. Nothing misleading. I quoted the bare bones not the whole document, which I think is actually worse. Anyway I’m off, I know MN can be pedants corner at times, which is probably one reason why are in this PC mess to begin with. Telling midwives to be sensitive to gender and whatever, how patronising can you get. I’m sure midwives have enough to contend with without this. Yeah, and I’m not “frothing” either here.

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MissMoped · 09/02/2021 22:49

That was to Gerbil.

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Mischance · 09/02/2021 22:50

Chest milk!! - I love it!!! - the world has truly gone mad - completely mad.

Can you imagine an NHS trust troubling their pretty little heads about this bollocks in the middle of a pandemic!? -WTF!

NiceGerbil · 09/02/2021 22:51

The document says

'Please note that these language changes do not apply when discussing or caring for
individuals in a one-on-one capacity where language and documentation should reflect
the gender identity of the individual. When caring for cis women it is good practice to
use terminology that is meaningful and appropriate to the individual; this may include
terms such as woman, mother or breastfeeding.'

So there's no concern there for those who are angry.

They also say always addition as they recognise that otherwise women feel erased.

It's all in the document which I read and in the posts I've written to try and explain.

If you want to get angry go to the NHS pregnancy thread.

gardenbird48 · 09/02/2021 22:53

Surely most transmen don’t have any breasts due to having them removed so wouldn’t be breastfeeding anyway.

Fwiw I don’t think this is about inclusion for the vanishingly small number of transmen that stop taking their testosterone and manage to get their body healthy enough to conceive and sustain a pregnancy. There was a sad announcement on Twitter recently from one such high profile person who didn’t manage to sustain a pregnancy.

It is about the existence of biological reality not being allowed to exclude transwomen.

If anyone else is so dysphoric they can’t even have a natural bodily function named, I’m not sure that having children will be helpful to their health.

NiceGerbil · 09/02/2021 22:54

'Telling midwives to be sensitive to gender and whatever, how patronising can you get.'

Yes of course they should be sensitive wtf!

I mean in my experience loads aren't! But to insist that midwives cause pregnant women titles and things that really upset them- why would you want to do that? This is a very vulnerable group. They are pregnant female people in denial about their own body/ dysmorpic etc. No of course midwives shouldn't upset them to make a point :/

TheRealParsnip · 09/02/2021 22:55

Not content to control and dominate the rest of our lives, men now want to take the things that are actually ours and not men's: words that describe us. This is so insulting to women that I can't find strong enough words.

CaptainCabinets · 09/02/2021 22:57

[quote MissMoped]Maybe Pumpkin. But see Motorola’s link, lots of advisors, perhaps even a majority, on the Maternity Gender Inclusive NHS document are “trans” men. Why are they getting a say on how mothers should be addressed or described is a bloody mystery to me.

www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2021/01/Gender-Inclusive-Language-in-Perinatal-Services-BSUH.pdf[/quote]
They’ve been consulted because they are transmen who have given birth and who can offer some perspective on how they might have liked to be addressed during their own birth experience, as ‘mother’ probably doesn’t fit them.

If you actually read the whole thing, you’d see that the document aims to set guidelines for how to address people who do NOT identify as female and who do not want to be referred to as ‘mothers’. At no point does the document dictate that ALL people receiving perinatal care will be referred to as ‘pregnant people’; it acknowledges that cis women are the majority and continue to be marginalised, and also that gender-neutral language will only apply to those who don’t identify as women.

In short, nothing this document proposes will change anything at all for cis women, but a small number of people who don’t identify as ‘female’ but who are accessing perinatal services may have a more positive healthcare experience if language that they are comfortable with is used FOR THEM, on a case-by-case basis.

So, ‘Mary’ who was born female and identifies as such would be known as ‘mother’, with ‘she/her’ pronouns, and if she chooses to breastfeed it would be referred to as such. ‘Birthing parent’ wouldn’t be an appropriate term.

‘AJ’ (one of the names in the document) may be non-binary, so might be referred to as ‘birthing parent’, ‘they/them’ and ‘chestfeed/breastfeed’ depending on what term they wanted to use, which could be identified simply by asking them. ‘Mother’ wouldn’t be an appropriate term to use without asking first.

Could you please explain why you wouldn’t want people to feel comfortable when they’re giving birth, which is arguably of the most vulnerable situations of their lives when it has no impact on you or anybody else? If you wouldn’t want to be known as ‘birthing parent’, why would you want someone who has had a hard time with their gender identity to be called ‘mother’ when they don’t want to and when there is an easy solution to make them feel more comfortable?

MissMoped · 09/02/2021 22:57

You haven’t quoted the whole document though Gerbil. Like I said pedants corner, choosing to miss the main point, so perhaps you can feel superior, or more clever, who can say. Unfortunately people like you in committees all over England get this dangerous nonsense and jargon through with all these mental and pedantic head games. Meanwhile, women’s real maternity (another word banned) services leave alot to be desired.

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MissMoped · 09/02/2021 23:00

Not wasting my time arguing with the trans lobby who are now going to take over this thread.

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dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 09/02/2021 23:03

@RosesAndHellebores

If Brighton & Sussex Trust has money to spend on this I trust nobody on their postnatal wards will ever ever tell a new mother they must wait for help /drugs etc. due to lack of resources.
Exactly yes...if they change the physical departmental signage to 'Perinatal Services', there will be pregnant women failing to find the correct department in time.
pumpkinbump · 09/02/2021 23:03

@gardenbird48

Surely most transmen don’t have any breasts due to having them removed so wouldn’t be breastfeeding anyway.

Fwiw I don’t think this is about inclusion for the vanishingly small number of transmen that stop taking their testosterone and manage to get their body healthy enough to conceive and sustain a pregnancy. There was a sad announcement on Twitter recently from one such high profile person who didn’t manage to sustain a pregnancy.

It is about the existence of biological reality not being allowed to exclude transwomen.

If anyone else is so dysphoric they can’t even have a natural bodily function named, I’m not sure that having children will be helpful to their health.

Absolutely SPOT ON!
CaptainCabinets · 09/02/2021 23:08

@MissMoped I wouldn’t say I’m a ‘trans lobbyist’, but I do like to make people feel as safe, comfortable and respected as I can, especially when they are in my care.

Microwaveableteapot · 09/02/2021 23:09

"If we only use gender neutral language, we risk marginalising or erasing the experience of some of the women and people who use our services. We understand the fear of erasure, however marginalising other groups because they are rare will not improve care for women"

LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE AT THE BACK.

MumUndone · 09/02/2021 23:10

@7catsandcounting

What percentage of people who give birth are transmen anyway? Surely it's so womanly, they'd want to do their best to avoid it. If they've medically transitioned, it's got to be quite a challenge, hasn't it?
Yes - how many people will actually benefit from this supposed inclusivity? How many people, whether women or trans men who can actually give birth or breastfeed are offended by the terms 'mother' and 'breastfeeding'? Why are we bending over backwards to be inclusive of what is probably an infinitesimally small number of people? It seems to me that the ones getting offended by the current language are those who cannot give birth and cannot breastfeed so really, we do not need to be inclusive of them anyway! It reeks of 'if I can't have something then you can't have it either ' - men, not wanting women to have anything, anything that is just ours.
NiceGerbil · 09/02/2021 23:11

Many women have raged over the years about being called wrong name/ given the wrong title etc.

This is about individuals.

I'm fine with additive language. Pregnant women and other pregnant people. Ok fine. Clunky and no doubt a head scratcher for many but not the end of the world.

I'm way more interested in where the words woman female girl are being replaced and the incursion of males into previously female only things.

I don't feel excited about this thread. That is just my opinion obviously.

Terranean · 09/02/2021 23:12

@youkiddingme

My wheel-chair using daughter doesn't object to the fact that we have sites devoted to 'walks around...x' rather than 'walks and wheelchair outings around...x' - though she is very happy to know where her wheelchair will go As I sight-impaired woman, I don't object to 'scenic views' as opposed to 'nice places to visit whether you can see them or not.' We have people who are not mums who visit mumsnet, should be call it 'mums-and-anyone-else-interested-in-similar-stuff-net' As an old biddy I hang out on gransnet, yet I have no grandkids...

The problem is that some people will feel excluded no matter how far backwards you bend. There may be a reason for that, connected to validation and the reasons validation may never really hit the spot. But why are so many institutions determined to keep bending no matter how far? And why is it always women who have to concur?

Vey good points there. I think I would do the same. It's nice people taking notice of your needs but as you say when it is about validation, everything might fall short.

Can some one explain to me how words such as breastfeeding or mother is triggering to a transman that has chosen to experience the most female of women's bodies abilities: to gestate?

This is an individual's choice that very few people can make (not that many transmen around), so why change women's language to describe an experience that 50+% of the population might contemplate to keep a tiny minority that have chosen to gestate, despite of gender dysphoria, happy?
Is this an attempt to erase women's ways? Like when they call us menstruators?

diamondsr4u · 09/02/2021 23:15

Well tough. Unless a man can produce breast milk and a womb to cook a baby, sod your gender neutral bull shit. I would straight up saying this to any midwife that dared to say that to me.

SD1978 · 09/02/2021 23:16

Given both men and women have breast tissue, this is ridiculous. Both have breasts, and breasts are used fir breast feeding- end of. Breasts are not divisive. They are not gendered, everyone sodding has them. Breasts and breastfeeding shouldn't have to be changed to pander to a minority. It had to stop somewhere.

indemMUND · 09/02/2021 23:16

So it's okay to ram breastfeeding down women's throats at antenatal classes while refusing to inform the same women (yes I asked for advice as a first time mother at the time but was told no we can't give you that information) about safely formula feeding and how to figure it out but get all inclusive about men? Fucking hell.

NiceGerbil · 09/02/2021 23:17

Brighton is a v diverse area so there it may not be tiny.

I think the 'milk from the feeding parent' is highly unclear as most people refer to formula as milk and anyone can give a bottle.

Also with chest feeding as men have breast tissue and can get breast cancer (and it's called breast cancer) so it's entirely unnecessary. And I think comes from a preoccupation with breasts in society generally (mainly for men of course, and causing discomfort for women and girls with their bodies).

Mockolate · 09/02/2021 23:18

A link would be good so we can see what you're talking about?!
I see people are reacting just going by a post on MN with no context, why?!

NiceGerbil · 09/02/2021 23:19

Terranean this mangling and changing it language, massively aimed at women's words but strangely not at men's,

Doesn't really come from transmen. That's an excuse- the major push to decouple female/ woman/ girl from our bodies and the things they do, comes mainly from a different direction.

NiceGerbil · 09/02/2021 23:20

Mockolate there is a link to the doc in the thread somewhere.

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