Midwives told to stop using terms such as 'breastfeeding' and 'breastmilk'

[MissMoped]

because it’s not gender inclusive language, I believe with particular reference to the transexual debate.

This is at Brighton and Sussex nhs trust btw, good to know NHS money is being spent wisely btw, poring over the “incorrect” use of language.

The word “mother” apparently should not be used on its own; instead “mother or birthing parent” (um, isn’t that a mother?).

Breast milk and breastfeeding is to be replace by “breast/chest milk” or “milk from the feeding parent”. “Woman” should be replaced with “woman or person”.

Gobsmacked.

I understand that it can be irritating but I think that first and foremost, written language has to be correct and it has to be clear, otherwise you store up problems further down the line.

I too find the focus on language irritating, there are far more pressing issues to deal with. But if service users tell services that the language used feels actively exclusive to them, it’s naive to think they won’t need to address that

Thing is though that women are constantly told that every thing else is nore important. It's seemingly OK for others to raise points around gender inclusivity however when women point out the faults we are told they are more urgent matters to be dealing with.

Regardless of feelings on gender,
accurate information is medically necessary to gain meaningful consent and make decisions.

Surely staff are leaving themselves open to all.sorts of consequences if they are having to use inaccurate language around an adult with full capacity? How does consent mean anything when it's based on what will surely be deemed as false information should the outcome lead to internal or external investigations?

And it must also be a worry that when something does go wrong , that you have to deal with the reaction to the trigger of the words on top of dealing with the emergency situation. Wouldnt it be easier to be clear from the beginning that they are free to talk about themselves as they wish but for the purpose of receiving the best care possible we will be sticking to accurate medical language?

But if service users tell services that the language used feels actively exclusive to them, it’s naive to think they won’t need to address that.

Agree, but if my belief in gender identity were more obviously religious or political, e.g. my conservative values dictate my belief that women only present or behave in certain ways , would they be so quick to agree that neutral language should be replaced by gendered language in general communication? (again assuming the policy does extend to general communication).

At what point should the service provider say, "we understand how you feel, and will respect that we care for you as an individual, but we stand by the belief that the terms are already neutral and inclusive".

I take on all your points about difficulties with language around cesareans etc., but believe that is unfortunately part and parcel of the nature of the service. It's difficult to know at what point breastfeeding policies cross the line from helpful to ideological, at what point a cesarean is a necessary intervention to help the mother.

The whole process of pregnancy necessarily involves weighing up one person's needs against another's.

I really understand that the range of passionate views mean that maternity services will always be in the wrong somehow.

Maybe any organisation or person that is subject to constant criticism, (fair or unfair), in the end only hears noise.

I think it's very telling that in the middle of a pandemic and with all the coverage there has been about issues around maternity care, that it doesn't seem to have occurred to BSUH to say "look we're busy right now and this isnt a priority". Somehow it never seems to occur to any organisation to just say "no" to this, why is that?? especially when saying no to the things women ask for seems to come so easy?

But if service users tell services that the language used feels actively exclusive to them, it’s naive to think they won’t need to address that.
I think that, if a service user tells you that, then the first thing you do is listen. You take it seriously. But then you have to weigh up the impact of any change on all the other service users, including those who might not think to complain.

@TammySwansonTwo do you think it is ok for our national health service to use inaccurate euphemisms such as chest feeding to make people feel better.

do you think it is ok for our national health service to use inaccurate euphemisms such as chest feeding to make people feel better.

Obviously I don't know what Tammy thinks, but I'm at the stage of life where I am dealing with lots of end of life care for elderly parents with increasing levels of dementia.

I would absolutely expect staff to reserve judgement and tolerate/use language that helps my parents, regardless of whether it is 'correct'.

(I can't think of a good example at the moment - there are lines that I wouldn't expect to be crossed - I don't think it's always easy to make hard and fast rules.)

What I wouldn't expect is that treatment suitable for my parents would be generalised across the health service. Again - it's really unclear what this policy covers.

Sorry but I can’t think of a context where using the wrong word is ok in a medical setting. Using a more accessible word fine, poo and wee instead of faeces and urine of whatever, but health professionals using made up words, to describe made up biological processes, is not acceptable, and also not a fair thing to ask of them, its legitimises made up terms.
Chest feeding does not exist, human babies are fed from the milk in human breasts. For the minority of trans men that is an uncomfortable truth, but a truth it is nonetheless.

Tammy I've read the whole of your post to me now, but not the Better Births documentation yet, thank you.

I think the points I'd have raised in my reply have already been covered by other posters and I don't want to drag the discussion backwards. But I'll reiterate this:

In maternity services, the mother is the woman who is giving birth and I believe everything should centre around her and the baby. That includes partners - male and female - whose needs, as far as I'm concerned, come second.

I think it's a big mistake for maternity services to mix up sex based language with the language of gender identity in their written information. (Just to repeat, I'm not talking so much about face to face exchange). Including a general statement in any written communications to explain this would be my compromise.

As I have said, there was a time, when I'd have been much more open to wider compromise but I've seen where that can end.

Sorry for the repetition but I didn't want to ignore your post.

Sorry but I can’t think of a context where using the wrong word is ok in a medical setting.

Sometimes people don't want to acknowledge the likelihood of death or the existence of cancer. Everyone knows what is happening, but the language is too painful.

Doesn't that make using plain language that can't be misinterpreted all the more important?

Doesn't that make using plain language that can't be misinterpreted all the more important?

What if it changes nothing? What if the patient won't live longer or in less pain if you use more specific language? What if it makes delivering care more difficult?

But if they haven't accepted and won't hear it then doesn't that make deciding of they have made informed consent more difficult?

Of course it doesn't change anything as far as what's wrong goes and the outcome , but doesn't that place staff ajd family I'm a realky awkward position of not being able to discuss a care plan?

@merrymouse medical staff do not lie to patients in that context though. They don’t tell them they are fine. Chest-feeding is a made up term. Babies are fed from human breasts.

medical staff do not lie to patients in that context though.

They don't lie. They will say "I think it's really important that you get here today". I have had very recent experience of this. Also, dealing with a relative who couldn't cope with the idea that their partner was about to die. Confrontation with the truth would just have resulted in behaviour that made care more difficult for the patient.

Also care plans often go out the window with elderly patients because it can be so difficult to know how things will proceed because so many things aren't working.

You are assuming that all the people involved are in a state of mind where rational thought is possible. That isn't always the case.

@merrymouse I absolutely don’t think the situation in which medical staff require nuance and empathy in delivering difficult messages about end of life is comparable to midwives having to use a made up term, that is biologically inaccurate, like chest feeding, throughout the anti natal care of pregnant trans men, simply because said those expectant mothers find the term breastfeeding too feminised for them.

*antenatal

@Kit19

I think it's very telling that in the middle of a pandemic and with all the coverage there has been about issues around maternity care, that it doesn't seem to have occurred to BSUH to say "look we're busy right now and this isnt a priority". Somehow it never seems to occur to any organisation to just say "no" to this, why is that?? especially when saying no to the things women ask for seems to come so easy?

Yes, why is that? Why are the people driving this misuse of the language able to get what they want while other 'service users' - women and men - are so often ignored or treated as if their views are an inconvenience?

But merrymouse, what is appropriate in individual circumstances in dementia care or end of life care is not necessarily applicable to general communications across the board in maternity services.

But merrymouse, what is appropriate in individual circumstances in dementia care or end of life care is not necessarily applicable to general communications across the board in maternity services.

This is the point I have made multiple points on this thread, most recently an hour ago. (I must get on with some proper work!).

@merrymouse I absolutely don’t think the situation in which medical staff require nuance and empathy in delivering difficult messages about end of life is comparable to midwives having to use a made up term, that is biologically inaccurate, like chest feeding, throughout the anti natal care of pregnant trans men, simply because said those expectant mothers find the term breastfeeding too feminised for them.

I don't know - I think you would have to ask a midwife.

I can imagine plenty of situations where a midwife would have to adapt care because they have to focus on the health of the mother and child, e.g. when everyone knows a child will be taken into care, when the mother holds religious beliefs that the midwife finds difficult. As I said before my experience is limited to the plot lines in 'Call the Midwife' and my 2 very boring pregnancies, so I think it would be better if an actual midwife commented on this!

I hate all this pregnancy and childbirth aren't illnesses yada usually pulled out to explain why heavily pregnant women on public transport shouldn't be offered a seat.

Now not to be called patients.

In a hospital. Having bloods drawn. May be prescribed medication for anaemia. Injections to protect against jaundice in subsequent births. Scans.

Plus lots of women are ill. Lots and lots.

Loads have sections, inductions, forceps etc etc

Patients isn't the right word though. What is?

A drain on resources who are making a fuss about nothing, probably.

Hence why they get the partners to do the care so often. I mean they're not patients so why do they need paid help post natally? Why do they even need a post natal ward at all FGS? I mean they're not ill.

Outrageous that staff could be disciplined over this and women are called bigots for asking for same sexpersonel.. as a lesbian it would be great not to be asked about my husband but I would not expect anyone to be disciplined over it. And if I am in a ward for gynaelogical problems I really feel it should not be forced to share with any kind of male person

[quote merrymouse]**@merrymouse I absolutely don’t think the situation in which medical staff require nuance and empathy in delivering difficult messages about end of life is comparable to midwives having to use a made up term, that is biologically inaccurate, like chest feeding, throughout the anti natal care of pregnant trans men, simply because said those expectant mothers find the term breastfeeding too feminised for them.

I don't know - I think you would have to ask a midwife.

I can imagine plenty of situations where a midwife would have to adapt care because they have to focus on the health of the mother and child, e.g. when everyone knows a child will be taken into care, when the mother holds religious beliefs that the midwife finds difficult. As I said before my experience is limited to the plot lines in 'Call the Midwife' and my 2 very boring pregnancies, so I think it would be better if an actual midwife commented on this! [/quote]
It’s not adapting care, it’s using made up biologically inaccurate terms.