Midwives told to stop using terms such as 'breastfeeding' and 'breastmilk'

[MissMoped]

because it’s not gender inclusive language, I believe with particular reference to the transexual debate.

This is at Brighton and Sussex nhs trust btw, good to know NHS money is being spent wisely btw, poring over the “incorrect” use of language.

The word “mother” apparently should not be used on its own; instead “mother or birthing parent” (um, isn’t that a mother?).

Breast milk and breastfeeding is to be replace by “breast/chest milk” or “milk from the feeding parent”. “Woman” should be replaced with “woman or person”.

Gobsmacked.

@TammySwansonTwo

The solution is not to give in to this nonsense. The NHS can navigate these issues on a person by person basis. They can even have it written into policy that they will respect an individual's "pronouns" and all the rest if they want to be inclusive. I think it's patent bollocks but at least in that way they can dance around those who demand it without running roughshod over women.

We're in this ever-expanding mess because we've patted too many children on the head and let them run riot. We need to rein it in now.

@InMySpareTime

So if I wanted my medical professionals to use the word "cunt" to refer to my genitals, they would have to do this? Or would they refuse as it is offensive language? Cunt is a perfectly legitimate term, and the only word that refers to both the vagina and vulva. I'm fairly certain they won't go that far to accommodate the language their service users want, and I doubt they'd use it in their literature, but "birthers" is in some ways more offensive that "cunt", as it dehumanises an entire sex.

A cunt was a word describing the holes that ropes were fed through to hold them in place on a sailing ship

@TammySwansonTwo

No, sadly that isn’t what happens usually - lesbians are often treated really poorly by maternity services.

The attempted change may be seen as a problem, but there’s really no options left to our services at this point. And it isn’t a change - some HCPs already know how to engage with service users who are trans, lesbian etc. Many do not and the way they handle things lead to justifiable complaints. This is formalising the way to support them, not an eradication of existing language.

I am gender critical, but this is an enormous overreaction to what is an attempt to ensure that all staff are aware of how to support everyone using the service.

It’s a no win situation at the moment - whatever language you use excludes someone or angers someone.

What's gender-critical mean?

It sounds like you're under tremendous pressure. You cannot please everyone and I think this convinces me that all you can do is ensure that your public information is a) medically correct b) written in plain, easy to understand language and c) relevant and to the point.

@334bu

*am fine with this language shift, **

What makes you fine about a language shift which implies that institutionalised misogyny and sexism s ok ?

I don't mind "pregnant women and" - I agree it gets a bit nuts if the term woman is excluded entirely, but really don't mind this approach. I think choosing battles is important. Point taken that "nipple feeding" might be confusing, but tried to add a little levity to this discussion.

@merrymouse

When asked why, Creasey tried to defend this because we shouldn't get "hung up" on language.

How does she think legislation should be written? Through the medium of interpretive dance? Of course language is important. She is just dodging the issue.

The most frustrating thing for me in all this is that supposedly intelligent educated women on the political left and right; are throwing their own sex under the bus and for what benefit exactly? Is it solely motivated by their need to be nominated for a seat/party list? Does Lisa Nandy really think it is possible to change sex?
Our allies are mainly Conservative men. Even Teresa May caved in to the lobby to some extent.

How many trans men see birth as something they actually want to do? I reckon many don't as it will severely affect their mental health.
And from that group, how many will take offence at the language normally used ?
I completely support the use of inclusive language when describing different parenting but reducing women to chest feeders and cervix havers is regressive.

@GrimDamnFanjo

How many trans men see birth as something they actually want to do? I reckon many don't as it will severely affect their mental health. And from that group, how many will take offence at the language normally used ? I completely support the use of inclusive language when describing different parenting but reducing women to chest feeders and cervix havers is regressive.

I don't think this is a transmen thing. It'll have come from a "woke" origin of someone who wishes to save their higher managerial position and is a bit thick filtering this down in a healthcare trust

In deciding which language should be standard in health what is wrong with the democratic rule of the majority?

Imposing the ideology of 1% of the population seems barmy.

I find this an interesting analogy 1% of the population are vegan. So would the general population stand by and “be kind” while veganism was promoted in schools, only vegan food in prisons and hospitals and anyone openly supporting the use of animal products was at risk of becoming unemployed?

I don’t think so. Why are institutions and the powers that be having a hard time balancing the freedoms and rights of the majority whilst protecting and providing for the reasonable needs of the minority when it comes to gender ideology and queer theory?

Maybe we need a referendum on this to prove the point that the majority would stick with existing sex based meanings of words in law, education and healthcare. Also the majority would likely prefer children to be told that their bodies are perfect as they are and don’t need changing to match their personalities.

So will they be called paternity wards from now on then too? And when the baby is born will they have to say 'It's a human!' Will ultrasound techs be allowed to ask you if you want to know the gender or will they be pushed to wait until the child grows up and decides?

I’m not a midwife although I work with the HCPs and also with service users, and am in a lot of meetings where this sort of topic would come up (although our trust has so far made no policy or statement on this issue and there’s not as much pressure on us as there are on some other areas... yet). It is slowly coming up more and more.

I regularly point out that for language to be inclusive it needs to be clear since we will have far more service users who have limited English (and very limited material is translated), and those who have limited literacy and / or learning disabilities. People with cervixes isn’t clear if you don’t know what a cervix is. Women excludes those who don’t identify as women, and where in other areas i might think one should just accept that language doesn’t always include every outlying situation, this is a situation where it’s so important that service users feel that they will be treated with respect or they might avoid care entirely (which does happen).

So please don’t feel I am dismissing the issue, I understand the strength of feeling and know that many will be unhappy with this concession, but I don’t see a viable alternative right now and I would infinitely prefer this to enforcement of gender neutral language. I have to be careful what I say here but I do play a role in comms and I have been resisting gender neutral language wherever possible, although quietly for now.

It’s absolutely wrong to have a situation where staff are disciplined for making an error. I just can’t see that happening but I will keep my ear to the ground.

I don’t think so. Why are institutions and the powers that be having a hard time balancing the freedoms and rights of the majority whilst protecting and providing for the reasonable needs of the minority when it comes to gender ideology and queer theory?

..Also the majority would likely prefer children to be told that their bodies are perfect as they are and don’t need changing to match their personalities

Totally agree. And that same majority is still mostly unaware of what's being done.

@Welikebeingcosy

So will they be called paternity wards from now on then too? And when the baby is born will they have to say 'It's a human!' Will ultrasound techs be allowed to ask you if you want to know the gender or will they be pushed to wait until the child grows up and decides?

No since paternity generally refers to fathers, not parents.

The use of the term perinatal is likely to increase in popularity but that’s fine by me - this is the terminology used behind the scenes and is more accurate than maternity since maternity can refer to the state id motherhood, while perinatal is specifically the period of pregnancy birth and the period after birth (usually to a year post birth).

Sonographers shouldn’t be using the term gender anyway since they’re not checking the gender, they are checking the sex. While some members of the public still call it a “gender scan”, it’s not called that - it’s the anomaly scan.

Oh god it was a joke.

Should they not use the word gender incase they offend the fetus?

It seems to me that this mess arises from conflating sex with gender identity. In the context of maternity services surely it's your sex rather than gender that is relevant, in which case ' woman' and 'mother' are the correct terms. In public information, as suggested many pages back, there could be a short statement explaining that all wording refers to sex and not gender because this is a medical context.

Will the offspring pull apart the flaps of the non assigned vulva to shout out 'don't assume my gender' and ask for a complaint form if they do?

@Apollo440

This has little to do with inclusivity or transmen and all to do with validation of a certain type of transwoman (biological males) who hate reminding of the things they can't do. Surely having the word woman erased is a small price to pay for their mental wellbeing?

I think you’re right here. I think I tried to say similar upthread - breast isn’t acceptable because, though both women and men have them, some breasts will not naturally produce milk ^^.

The wonderful Joanna Cherry has spoken out in the House of Commons today about the erasure of the word mother, and the use of the term chest feeding. This is a must watch.

twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1359921849619140614?s=20

I suppose the trades will have to clean up their language soon. Male and female connectors aren’t very woke, and a nipple joint valve might be mistaken for some form of chestfeeding aid.

The word breasts is acceptable because breasts are the only human organ that produces milk. The alternative is a can of formula. I don't like being reminded that I can't buy a Bentley or live in a mansion it doesn't mean rich people should have new terminology forced upon them to satiate my insecurities.

@borntobequiet hahahaha

@Impatiens

Maternity services should be accessible to all who need them, not alienate some. The only way to do that is to try to keep everyone happy which isn’t possible, this comes closest.

Except that it doesn't, because it's alienating the majority at the expense of a minority. How many transmen give birth? Surely there can only be tiny number since, by definition, such people won't want to do something that so clearly identifies them as female biologically.

I don't believe this is about inclusivity at all, it's about giving in to a very vocal (and potentially very intimidating) group of activists, many of whom aren't trans.

This

Using gender neutral language would alienate you. Using existing language and adding gender neutral language should not. Anyone on the other side of this would argue that you’re being unreasonable to argue that additional language is alienating.

As I’ve said repeatedly upthread, referring to mothers and partners is alienating for lesbian couples - if you spend time speaking to them about their experiences of maternity care it’s often really sad. You can be a mother and not be the one giving birth. If they feel excluded from the language used and don’t access maternity care because they are concerned about how they’ll be treated or spoken to, that’s terrible - and it happens.

I would stop tying yourself up in knots trying to please everyone. It's never going to happen. But you can use words that are clear, easy to understand and correct in a medical context. Add a statement to explain what you've done and why.

As I’ve said repeatedly upthread, referring to mothers and partners is alienating for lesbian couples - if you spend time speaking to them about their experiences of maternity care it’s often really sad. You can be a mother and not be the one giving birth. If they feel excluded from the language used and don’t access maternity care because they are concerned about how they’ll be treated or spoken to, that’s terrible - and it happens.

I don't understand why 'Mother' is alienating for lesbian couples - what's the issue? One half of a lesbian couple is pregnant, therefore she's the Mother for the purposes of accessing maternity care.

I also don't see why people would be so concerned over such language that they'd rather put themselves and their baby in danger than have maternity care. I don't want to gainsay experience you might have had @TammySwansonTwo but I find this really hard to believe.

There's a difference between ensuring everyone is treated and spoken to with respect and common decency (something many many pregnant women have issues with) and pandering to a dishonest agenda for no good reason.