DC left home alone

[mumof2sc]

Posting here for traffic really but...
I have 2 DC aged 5&8.
I have shared custody (50/50) with my exH.

DC have revealed today that they are often left home alone in the mornings while he takes his younger DS to nursery. They've told me they eat their breakfast and then go to the living room and have instructions not to answer the door.
I also have concerned about the fact they tell me they often walk the dog with just their older step sibling who is 12. Both of them have had different (minor) injuries when they've been doing this. It's also not the best area and let's just say there are a lot of unsavoury characters around where he lives.

I'm not at all happy about this and would absolutely never leave my children home alone even if it is just for 10/15 minutes.
I don't have the best relationship with exH (despite my best efforts, he's just not prepared to be civil) and as a result i don't feel I can raise this with him as I know how he will react. I also don't want the kids getting it in the neck when they go back to him.

The 50/50 arrangement has been in place since we separated and I hate it. I'd never stop him seeing his children but I feel he's making decisions that are not in their best interests.
AIBU? Is this an over reaction on my part? If not, WTF do I do?

@Sweet666

The kids are 5 and 8... they are not little babies, why is everyone saying it is wrong? You know this is normal in other parts of the world? And they are not being left for a long time only a few minutes, the same as if the parent was downstairs or upstairs or in the garden or whatever or if the kids were playing out... When I was a kid I would leave the house from 3 years old with other older kids and this was in a country a lot more dangerous than UK

Lots of things are normal in other parts of the world but not necessarily right.

5 is too young to be left alone, regardless of what you did as a kid.

@copernicium

I left my 11 and 14 yo alone to food shop during lockdown and the police attended after reports.

What?!?

OP - I usually feel MN is, by and large, ridiculous about children and independence, but I agree here that 5 is too young to be left without adult supervision* and 8 is borderline - my eldest had just turned 9 when I first left him for 20 min, and the older two were 10 and nearly 8 when first left together (explicitly without the older being 'responsible for' the younger).

*I leave my 5yo with one or both of my older two, who are now 15 and 13, on occasion, but I wouldn't be happy with the 12yo step-sibling supervising in this case because of not knowing the child or the set-up. Taking the 12yo out of the equation makes things even more clear-cut, obviously - my dh once left the older two alone for 5 minutes when they were about 5 and 7 and when I found out I made it extremely clear that he was not to do that again. We're living in a culture that's more relaxed than the UK about this sort of thing and not unheard of even these days for 6-7yos to come home from school and let themselves in, which explains his actions, but I have my limits.

If you go via the school, it may not be obvious that it was you (and I understand your reluctance to tackle him directly) - it may be that they mentioned it to a teacher.

Depends. How long are they left alone in the morning? How far do they walk with the 12 year old?

Depending on how far away the nursery is (eg end of same road) I would fine with the 8 year old being left for a very short while.
What I would absolutely not be OK with is the 5 year old being left to all intents and purposes alone. The 8 year old is far too young to be responsible for a younger sibling.
Why on earth can't their father get them up and dressed and take them with him?
Dog walk is a separate issue, IMO. Although I probably wouldn't be comfortable with leaving a 5 year old with a 12 year old either.

This isn’t a school issue. All they’ll do is what you might consider doing: refer to SS.

I think they’re all too young.

Your two shouldn’t be left alone. It sounds like they’re also being left at home with a dog - not good.

12yo walking around a rough area, crossing roads and supervising unrelated 8 and 5 yos and a dog. It’s really unfair on all the children. If something happened to one or more of them it would be so awful. The minor injuries are already a sign that something is awry,

Their dad needs to organise his left better and walk his dog with them!

If you can’t rely on a reasonable response from him because of his previous abusive behaviour and personality disorder I’d be inclined to cut out weekday overnights so they are not being left in the mornings.

But if I’m really honest, it sounds like you are trying really hard by facilitating your ex’s contact but do your children need a narcissistic abuser in their lives?

Just speak to your ex about it and stop being silly. If something were to happen to your kids whenthey are home alone when he is doing nursery run you'd feel guilty for not having a simple chat about it. Wht let them be there knowing they are neglected.

@Cheesyblasters had been very clear. That would get a visit from Children’s social care. They’d look at whether he was making safe decisions and able to be a protective parent.

OP. You need to raise it with it. Make it clear it’s not acceptable and if you don’t have assurances it won’t happen again you need to withhold contact and make a safeguarding concern.

If someone asked me to speak to the other parent as they were concerned the joint kids were in danger I'd think wtf why does it take a teacher for you to discuss your own kids with your ex. Madness.

Do you have any suggestions as to how to raise this kind of issue with someone who is a narcissist and has been emotionally abusive towards me?
I understand that it's my job to do something about it, but raising it with him is not something I feel I can do for very good reasons. Hence my OP.

I understand it may be very difficult but you need to put your children’s welfare first - if SS become involved they may also be asking why you didn’t act on this. If you think there may be some terrible repercussions for the child then my response may be different though.

I think first step is saying to him that child has mentioned being left alone and asking him if this is true. Then assessing his response and if you think he is telling the truth or not, deciding to take it further. It may be that saying to him you will contact SS if it happens again would do the job - only you know him. But SS will definitely take it seriously if you want to go straight to them. Legally, if one of the children were injured while left alone, he would be prosecuted.

@WorraLiberty, the authorities would get involved for children of those ages. The Police would try to persuade the children to open the door. The Father would probably be home by then. But usually children respond to the Police.

The point is that this is completely unnecessary, so shouldn't be done. The dog walking depends on the dog and how sensible the 5 year old is.

@Sweet666, it doesn't matter what happens in other countries. It isn't acceptable in the UK. We have better child protection than some countries. Children deserve to be kept safe. Would you say that DV should be ignored because it's not illegal in every country?

I’m with you that walking the dog different from playing out. What happens if the dog runs away or gets in a fight? Or attack one of the kids. Very easy for your children, especially your 5 yo to get hurt or run over. I used to live in a less wealthy area. Some of the dogs were ‘hard’ and not controlled.

As for being left alone, I possibly would have left the 8 yo if they were ready. But the 5 yo. No. It may be easier but nursery may also not be ok to allow entry to siblings.

Op if you go to a teacher and raise this, they will phone social services. Then when social services investigate this you will be asked why you didn't do anything to try to prevent it once you knew about the problem. You need to raise this with your ex, before you try to get others involved, it can go very south very quickly once that happens.

I should have said, I would inform the authorities about the 5 yo being home alone with the 8 yo ‘in charge’.

I'm surprised at the number of people on here saying "it depends" or "sometimes" it's OK to leave kids this age alone, if they are sensible.

It is actually ILLEGAL to leave children this age at home alone.

He's breaking the law and it is a safeguarding matter, so actually you shouldn't even be questioning this or second-guessing it! You need to sort this out now for your children's safety and not let them go there again unless he can provide appropriate supervision.

Sweet666

As I already said I was reported for leaving an 8 year old home alone whilst I took my others to school, I didn’t think it was wrong but the school obviously did and ss did Call me so it isn’t seen as acceptable.

Surely the father must know the children will talk?

@nancywhitehead

I'm surprised at the number of people on here saying "it depends" or "sometimes" it's OK to leave kids this age alone, if they are sensible.

It is actually ILLEGAL to leave children this age at home alone.

He's breaking the law and it is a safeguarding matter, so actually you shouldn't even be questioning this or second-guessing it! You need to sort this out now for your children's safety and not let them go there again unless he can provide appropriate supervision.

It's actually NOT. There is no age in law that you can or can not leave children home alone. That said, of course the police would take a dim view of very young children being left alone and you can be charged with child neglect. But there is no statutory magic age at which you may leave your child at home alone.

It is actually ILLEGAL to leave children this age at home alone.

It isn’t. Check your facts before putting them in capital letters.

@WorraLiberty

If the police had a call on it theres every chance they'd gain access to remove the children to take them to a safe adult.

Not for a 10/15 minute nursery run they wouldn't.

They'd obviously give the adult that amount of time to return home as a minimum, rather than turning up and taking the door off...

Yes they would if an 8 and 5 year old are in the house alone. I'd tell the police and social services.

Since it is not illegal to leave children home alone, I dont think anything would be done about it unless something happened. Or if there were other factors to suggest neglect was the reason they were being left.

Yes, SS may make a phone call to ask your exh why he is choosing to do what he does, and if he could do differently. But chances of it going past the initial phone call is quite slim, I think. If the only issues are children being left alone while dad does school run, and kids accompanying 12 year old to walk a dog. It's not something I agree with, I think they are too young to be left on their own. But, it's not against the law.

I would raise it with ex, even if it's difficult. I really think it's your job to do so.

Don't be confrontational, but approach it as a question 'talking to the children, they seemed to think they had been left in the house alone while you did the nursery run. I thought that couldn't be right, but thought I'd better check with you'

See what he says even though it's difficult. Given you've only had reports from 2 small children, I would be checking it out.

He might deny it (lying) or he might confirm it and defend his actions. Either way, you can say quite clearly, that you think they are too young to be left alone.

If he insists on defending it and carrying on, you will need to tell school and they can involve SS if you don't want to. School will tell SS you raised it as a concern with them, so you won't come across badly Op. You can tell school the partner is sometimes there and it's not every day. However, if he says it isn't happening, I think you might need to talk to the kids again and ask the older one to confirm they are left alone. You then will need to tell the school or SS direct.

I can see you don't want to talk to him about it and you worry about the repercussions. I can see that's all a worry. But I think you will have to.

TheChip

It’s not illegal (in England) to smack children either but ss would still take it seriously if a child said they were being smacked

but ss would still take it seriously if a child said they were being smacked

They would, but if they discovered it was a legal smack they wouldn’t take action. But a five year old at home alone (while not illegal) is probably neglect.

Why don't you call SS yourself OP and express your concerns to them. Ask their advice on what they think you should do?

That will solve everything and save all of the back and forth between school etc. Its a quick call to say "look ex is doing this, I'm not comfortable. What would you suggest the next steps are that I take?"