To think that the vast majority of people do not feel they have a gender identity?

[Galvantulang]

My company has recently started suggesting that we can record our gender identity and preferred pronouns (these would be publicly displayed on the intranet) on our HR record system. It's optional for now, but almost everyone I asked at work when the email came out went "eh?".

Apart from the data protection issues of collecting all this extra information, AIBU to think that the majority of people don't consider themselves to have a gender identity, just their sex?

i.e. you don't identify as a man or woman, you just... are one?

Watching laws and amendments to bills being proposed (especially in Scotland) based on recognising gender identity rather than biological sex, seems somewhat unreal.

Um...

Yabu = I feel like I have a gender identity.
Yanbu = I do not feel like I have a gender identity.

I don’t know what a gender identity is 🤷‍♀️

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

I find part of this discussion strange.

There is an accusation against women here not to know any trans people even though many of them have talked about trans children, husbands who are trans and friends who are trans. These women have been told they don’t know what they are talking about when they talk about how women should view trans women. When they talk about their own perspective.

On the other hand, trans women claim to understand and know biological women to the extent that they want to convince us that they are women. Based on some gender identity? Without ever acknowledging women’s traumas from rape, childbirth and domestic violence and sexual assault. I have been lucky enough not to have experienced rape or sexual assault, but I have no problem understanding the trauma that can bring. It is almost as if biological sex means something for the understanding of this.

Not to mention the absolutely vile way trans activists behave towards women who have BEEN trans, and who then detransitioned when they realise what a house of cards it is.

We as women are never allowed to be experts on our own experiences, however much we know.

ArcheryAnnie
We as women are never allowed to be experts on our own experiences, however much we know.

Along with persons with penises deliberately misunderstanding what we say and thinking they are clever when they do so.

I don't really understand what you mean. I was born female and I guess I identify as female. I love being a girl and I do feel it's a big part of who I am. But there are lots of things about me that aren't necessarily seen as 'feminine' traits that define me too. Like.. I love riding dirt bikes, but I'm gona be doing it in mascara and lipstick!! But I love being a girl... Id be upset if I was mistaken for a male or people called me Mr.

Nah you don't get to pull this anymore

Pull what? Remind you that some females cannot share space with male people at all, regardless of how those male people choose to identify and that the forcing of male people into female spaces will exclude those females?

You think that's just a fun line in some 'game' that you're mentally playing?

Words fail. What a truly disgusting reveal that is.

I do know some of these women. I know that you don't give a flying fuck what happens to them, you sound actually amused by the situation they are in because of male people unable to understand that they're not the only humans on the planet who matter, and I don't begin to understand how you manage to reconcile that with your conscience. I do know I'm done trying to engage with you.

Pull what? Remind you that some females cannot share space with male people at all, regardless of how those male people choose to identify and that the forcing of male people into female spaces will exclude those females?

No use women from religious communities as a gotcha. It was quite clear on the communal chnaging rooms that many GC people felt their right to be naked around other women was more important than a Muslim woman's right to be able to use the space. Almost as if some people only really care about the needs of women from minority religions when they can be weaonised against trans people.

Nah you don't get to pull this anymore, not after the thread in FWR where everyone argued in favour of communal nakedness in changing rooms despite the fact that excludes many Muslims.

Nope. Every communal changing room I've ever been in has several curtained off individual cubicles. As you were informed.

Not to mention the absolutely vile way trans activists behave towards women who have BEEN trans, and who then detransitioned when they realise what a house of cards it is.

Many detransitioners have asked that their experiences should not be weaponised against trans people. Why don't you care about what detransitioners want?

My best friend spent half her childhood in women's refuges and finds the idea that the most frightening thing about moving into a refuge might be the possibility of bumping into a trans woman hilarious.

Ah yes, you can demand women take male born individuals into account when it comes to women's boundaries, but the experience of traumatised women not wanting to encounter males gets minimised by your mate.

Got it.

Many detransitioners have asked that their experiences should not be weaponised against trans people. Why don't you care about what detransitioners want?

Why don't you care what women want?

@Datun

Many detransitioners have asked that their experiences should not be weaponised against trans people. Why don't you care about what detransitioners want?

Why don't you care what women want?

Pretty much all the women I know support trans inclusion. Mumsnet FWR posters are not very representative.

@jj1968

Not to mention the absolutely vile way trans activists behave towards women who have BEEN trans, and who then detransitioned when they realise what a house of cards it is.

Many detransitioners have asked that their experiences should not be weaponised against trans people. Why don't you care about what detransitioners want?

And many detransitioners have been incredibly brave, begun organisations, or started court cases, and spoken out and asked others to speak out, too, because they don't want the damage that was done to them be done to other young women.

But I don't expect you to give a shit about what those young women want, jj, or to be at all invested in avoiding damage to other young women, so as you were.

@jj1968

Pull what? Remind you that some females cannot share space with male people at all, regardless of how those male people choose to identify and that the forcing of male people into female spaces will exclude those females?

No use women from religious communities as a gotcha. It was quite clear on the communal chnaging rooms that many GC people felt their right to be naked around other women was more important than a Muslim woman's right to be able to use the space. Almost as if some people only really care about the needs of women from minority religions when they can be weaonised against trans people.

Literally not a single poster on that thread made any remarks like that. Not one.

I've just read the entire thread, and as is the norm with posters from Anglophone countries, the majority feel uncomfortable about communal nudity, even in single-sex spaces. And most posters said so.

To your point about Muslim women, several posters reminded you that the OP was not arguing for communal changing rooms without individual cubicles, but for changing rooms with cubicles, to accommodate all female users - those who were uncomfortable with nudity around strangers of the same sex would use the cubicles as would those whose cultural background meant they could not be naked around any strangers. Those who didn't mind could use the communal space.

That was the preferred solution to your concern about Muslim women. Not to dismiss them.

Mumsnet FWR posters are not very representative.

You are talking about your social bubble. Mumsnet FWR posters are mostly self declared feminists. Many women wouldn't identify themselves as feminists and don't give this as much thought or headspace as we do, but entirely share our boundaries around males in female spaces. And don't like men telling them how to think and what a woman is.

You're not convincing anyone. But good for lurkers to see.

Literally not a single poster on that thread made any remarks like that. Not one.

How surprising

You think that's just a fun line in some 'game' that you're mentally playing?

Words fail. What a truly disgusting reveal that is.

YY.

Literally not a single poster on that thread made any remarks like that. Not one

I agree....

No one was arguing in favour of communal nakedness...at all

Quite a few of those detransitioners who were involved in starting organisations have since retransitioned and spoken out against the harm that came from gender critical ideology.

The trans community is putting it's house in order regarding detransitioners, the vast majority of whom aren't opposed to transition they just found it wasn't for them. But I agree more can be done to make detransitioners welcome in trans circles and we can learn a lot from each other. That's always going to be difficult with someone like Kiera Bell who decided that because transition wasn't right for her then she should prevent anyone undergoing it. And not least because she recently defended Posie Parker after she called for armed male vigilantes to start using women's toilets to protect against the trans. But I'm sure if Kiera has a change of heart she would be welcomed in time by the trans community as well. We're a pretty forgiving bunch.

I think a general rule of thumb is that if there are posts on any thread that anyone perceives as deliberately goady or personal attacks, that they report them without engaging.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Mumsnet FWR posters are not very representative.

You are talking about your social bubble. Mumsnet FWR posters are mostly self declared feminists. Many women wouldn't identify themselves as feminists and don't give this as much thought or headspace as we do, but entirely share our boundaries around males in female spaces. And don't like men telling them how to think and what a woman is.

You're not convincing anyone. But good for lurkers to see.

Pretty much all the women I know are would describe themselves as feminist. Many are very active in fact.

Fascinated to hear about your social circle jj, but your anecdote isn't actually data, so I'll take it with a large spoonful of salt.

We're a pretty forgiving bunch

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

< deep breath >

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Annie you went there, I didn't

'A pretty forgiving bunch'

Narrator in voiceover - 'they were neither forgiving nor pretty'

To your point about Muslim women, several posters reminded you that the OP was not arguing for communal changing rooms without individual cubicles, but for changing rooms with cubicles, to accommodate all female users - those who were uncomfortable with nudity around strangers of the same sex would use the cubicles as would those whose cultural background meant they could not be naked around any strangers. Those who didn't mind could use the communal space.

That's not true. One person even objected to the idea of converting existing communal spaces based on the fact it might put their gym membership fee up. And communal spaces with a few cubicles dotted around would not solve the problem because seeing nudity is as mucch as problem as being nude. You'd need a special naked room. Which is fair enough, if you want to be naked around other people that much you probably should get a room.