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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think bad dog owners don't realise that they are bad dog owners?

454 replies

WayTooSoon · 06/02/2021 10:36

Kind of a thread about lots of threads...

Every so often, threads appear on here saying someone's dog ran up to them/their child/their dog and how the owners respond with "it's ok, he's friendly" or similar. What usually follows is a load of posters saying "bad owners give us good owners a bad name". So is mumsnet entirely populated by "good owners" or are people oblivious to their own shortcomings as pet owners? Aibu to think that if someone is a bad owner, it seems likely that they have no idea that other people see them as a bad owner?

Are you now or have you ever been a "bad owner"?

OP posts:
tenbananasaday · 08/02/2021 17:22

@Goldenbear

I was specifically replying to a point, a ludicrous one, that compares children and pet dogs in a park setting. The child has far more rights than the dog and that is a fact.
Ofcourse the dog owner and their dog has an equal right to enjoy the park setting as a child. To suggest that they don't, is a ridiculous and arrogant assertion. Dog owners aren't second class citizens and the world doesn't revolve around our children. They may not have equal rights in a legal situation but there is no reason, that I can see, to say that children have more right to walk or play in a park than a dog unless it's a play park specially meant for kids. Because dogs are animals? Newsflash! We all are. Cannot believe the arrogance of such an assertion. Also I think some posters would benefit from learning the difference between comparing and equating. Just saying..
o8O8O8o · 08/02/2021 18:14

Dog owners aren't second class citizens
true, but dogs are not citizens, they are pets
just like cows are not citizens they are livestock etc
dogs in china are not citizens they are livestock
cows in india are sacred animals
clearly many dog owners think their pets ought to be afforded the status of cows in India

o8O8O8o · 08/02/2021 18:15

their dog has an equal right
dogs don't have rights
rights are afforded to humans by humans

greatpurplepolkadots · 08/02/2021 18:20

@o8O8O8o

Dog owners aren't second class citizens true, but dogs are not citizens, they are pets just like cows are not citizens they are livestock etc dogs in china are not citizens they are livestock cows in india are sacred animals clearly many dog owners think their pets ought to be afforded the status of cows in India
This made me laugh so hard, I love it.
tenbananasaday · 08/02/2021 18:22

@o8O8O8o

their dog has an equal right dogs don't have rights rights are afforded to humans by humans
Ofcourse dogs have rights. Or at least they do in this country. We have animal welfare laws, laws against cruelty and stuff.
o8O8O8o · 08/02/2021 18:27

We have animal welfare laws, laws against cruelty and stuff
yer, we have tree preservation orders, but trees dont have 'rights'

This made me laugh so hard, I love it
thank you sacred citizen greatpurplepolkadots! Grin

o8O8O8o · 08/02/2021 18:31

fee.org/articles/do-animals-have-rights/
if anyone would like to explore the arguments....

Since Peter Singer published Animal Liberation in 1975, animal rights activists have proposed the idea that animals should be granted the same rights as human beings. Various movements have emerged, and throughout the past decade, endeavors have turned out to be increasingly successful. Referring to scientific studies with animals exhibiting attributes similar to human beings, activists argue that animals are akin to human beings and should thus be protected with the same body of rights. So why is it that animals do not have the same legal status as human beings?

The Case for Animal Rights
The line of reasoning in favor of granting animals equal rights to human beings emphasizes the fact that scientists have found traits in animals we normally associate with human beings. As an example, a group of scientists showed that monkeys demonstrate self-consciousness at the same level as human beings. This has usually served as a justification for human rights, so why don’t we—as a minimum—grant equal rights to the most developed animal species? After all, the principle of habeas corpus—derived from the Magna Carta with the intention to prevent unlawful detentions—would protect those species from encroachment and arbitrary violations of rights, thus avoiding painful and degrading treatment.

Despite convincing scientific evidence, this argument does not provide any philosophical justification of animal rights.

The fact that some animals exhibit traits similar to human beings certainly provides a strong argument for granting at least some animals rights. But despite convincing scientific evidence, this argument does not provide any philosophical justification of animal rights. An adequate argument for animal rights would require further philosophical inquiry and not only descriptive conclusions. Of course, we can feel reverence and pity for animals being treated badly, but this does not lead to the conclusion that animals should enjoy the same legal status as persons.

Rights and Duties
There is a strong reason for maintaining that rights only apply to human beings. While fundamental rights surely are valuable in their nature, they would be worthless without any mechanism to uphold them. That is why we expect other people to respect our rights.

The mechanism that upholds our rights is the fact that other people are constrained by duties in their behavior towards us. In our everyday lives, we experience numerous situations in which fraudulent or violent persons could profit from violating our rights. Nonetheless, we see—of course, with some exceptions—that individuals cooperate and respect other people’s rights. Rights and duties are two sides of the same coin, and one cannot claim to have certain rights without having to comply with corresponding duties.

Rights would merely be well-intended declarations if it were not for our moral duties toward other people.

Thus, rights would merely be well-intended declarations if it were not for our moral duties toward other people. If it is my claim to live freely on my property without intrusion, my neighbor’s duty impedes him from violating my right to property and life. Suppose, however, he trespasses on my plot and engages in vandalism on my property. He will then be held accountable through judicial reprisals, for he has violated my property rights and failed his duty to respect my rights. This is completely reasonable, but we will certainly face obstacles if my property was violated by, say, an elephant or a chimpanzee.

If we assume that animals are granted the same legal status as human beings, justice requires that we now drag the culprit to court. For, remember, if our animal has rights, it will logically also have duties. In other words, it is responsible for its own actions. Therefore, it is now subject to the same legal procedures as human beings. This raises embarrassing practical questions, for who will defend the animal in court? And will the animal be able to comprehend what is going on? History provides us with a great variety of absurd trials involving animals.

Europe’s History of Animal Trials
It is inconceivable that those animals would comprehend the slightest fraction of the legal code, of moral questions and the procedures in court.

Faced with criminal charges, animals suffered capital punishment for various crimes in early Europe. There are numerous instances of animals that were tortured and hanged for their vicious crimes. Yet some animals were in fact acquitted for their charges during this paradigm of animal trials. For instance, a donkey was acquitted in 1750 after facing charges of bestiality. But although torture and brutal hangings surely have inflicted pain upon supposedly guilty animals, an important question remains: Did those animals understand human law and morality? I stand to question that. It is inconceivable that those animals would comprehend the slightest fraction of the legal code, of moral questions and the procedures in court. And that is exactly the reason why animals do not have rights.

Dragging animals to court surely seems absurd. Nevertheless, granting rights to animals entails exactly this consequence. Because rights and duties are cognate, animals cannot only enjoy being protected by rights. They will also be subject to corresponding duties. But being unable to comprehend those duties and moral foundations, animals cannot have rights. As Roger Scruton writes, the Constitution was written under the assumption that people are familiar with their duties. We know it’s wrong to steal, kill, and cheat other people. But animals don’t

MustardMitt · 08/02/2021 18:34

@TheFuckingDogs

Mumsnet Would definitely think I’m a bad owner! I believe my dogs have a right to be off lead in certain places (particularly quiet dog walky places) and think it’s weird how many people are terrified of dogs/ constantly thinking about dogs when they don’t even have one! MN has a seriously weird obsession with hating dogs
I think it’s exactly the opposite.

I don’t like dogs. Big ones or little ones - I just don’t like them. I don’t want them near me, I don’t want them touching me, I can have a short conversation about them but I don’t like them.

So yes, when you’ve had a dog sniffing at your crotch and jumping all over you because ‘it’s ok, he’s friendly’ I do tend to maybe overthink it when I see a dog out and about. And when a thread like this comes along, people discuss it.

Sure take your dog to the park but keep it on lead if it can’t be trusted not to run and jump up at other people. I’ll stay out of the dog walking park if you stay out of the playground.

tenbananasaday · 08/02/2021 18:42

@o8O8O8o

We have animal welfare laws, laws against cruelty and stuff yer, we have tree preservation orders, but trees dont have 'rights'

This made me laugh so hard, I love it
thank you sacred citizen greatpurplepolkadots! Grin

Hardly the same. It's not cruel to punch a tree.. but most decent people would object to punching a dog.
tenbananasaday · 08/02/2021 18:52

You wouldn't call the police if you witnessed someone punching a tree, but I definitely would if I saw someone abusing an animal.

Mittens030869 · 08/02/2021 18:57

You wouldn't call the police if you witnessed someone punching a tree, but I definitely would if I saw someone abusing an animal.

^This. Trees aren't sentient creatures and don't feel pain for goodness sake. What a stupid comparison.

There can be custodial sentences for animal cruelty, so animals do have some rights according to the law of the land.

Aloethere · 08/02/2021 19:10

The UK sounds like the wild west when it comes to dogs. Everyone here has their dogs on leads in busy places.

I did accidentally laugh out loud at the park yesterday when this woman squealed and jumped into a mud pile to get away from my ankle-high dog who was ambling along beside me on a short lead paying no heed to her at all. It was the absurdity of the situation that got me. We were about 2 metres away from her minding our own business. Ridiculous carry on. I wonder did she go home and tell her family about the crazy dog that was out to get her and the callous owner that didn't care.

Girliefriendlikespuppies · 08/02/2021 19:25

My dog is 18 months old and it's been a steep learning curve being a first time dog owner. I would say on balance we've got it right more than we've got it wrong but I have misjudged the situation at times.

We have spent a lot of time training our dog to greet other dogs politely and then walk on, if another dog is on the lead our dog goes back on the lead or gives the dog a wide berth.

On a couple of occasions though we've turned a corner and come face to face with another dog or I've not seen a dog coming and reacted too late. Generally my dogs recall is good but there's been the odd time where he's completely ignored me.

Each time there's been a less than perfect dog greeting we've gone away and thought about it and worked harder on training.

whenwillthemadnessend · 08/02/2021 19:34

There still opportunities for socialisation of lock down puppies

My dog trainer brings her lab along to demonstrate and help that's one option

Doggy day care is still allowed

Ask a friend with dogs to walk with you and your puppy Most people will have at least one friend with a dog

Go to places with lots of dogs. Most dog owners see a puppy and a stop to chat Ask politely if pup can say hi

Go get a takeaway coffee and find a bench to sit and pup can watch the world

It's really not hard anything else is just making excuses.

BalladOfBarryAndFreda · 08/02/2021 19:38

I’m an average to good dog owner with an adolescent large breed. He is friendly, has excellent recall, is mostly polite with other dogs (waiting for their cues and playing/greeting according to their wishes), he stays close to me, always ‘checks in’ when he’s off lead, doesn’t eat random things. I pick up the poo, put him on lead or just walk the other way if there’s enough distance when there’s another on lead dog in sight, ask owners if it’s ok for mine to play before he approaches theirs, never give other dogs treats unless the owners say it’s ok. However, he is an absolute sod for stealing balls and not giving them back and pulls like a train on the lead; both of these things are ongoing training issues. We’re not perfect but we’re not bad.

BalladOfBarryAndFreda · 08/02/2021 19:42

He also is totally aloof around people whilst in public, so doesn’t bother strangers. Luckily.

Poorlykitten · 08/02/2021 20:42

@MarleyTheDog and @Mittens030869 a quick google will tell you pet ownership/dog ownership is on the increase and has been steadily for years. Your experience if growing up in a neighbourhood full of dogs is not indicative of everywhere.

Poorlykitten · 08/02/2021 20:46

*of

Mittens030869 · 08/02/2021 20:57

@Poorlykitten

Fair point. But I was responding to this comment:

25 years ago hardly any people owned dogs compared to the extend they do today.

It certainly wasn't a case of 'hardly any', there were plenty of families that had pet dogs, as did my family. But they usually only had one dog not several. And the concept of a dog being a 'fur baby' was unknown.

I mean, obviously dogs were popular, otherwise why would the 'Lassie' films been as well loved as they were?

Mittens030869 · 08/02/2021 20:59

And obviously I accept the data. I hadn't been bothered enough to look it up. I was speaking from my own memory.

Mittens030869 · 08/02/2021 21:08

I don't think it's a majority of owners who are irresponsible, though, I really don't. I think what's happening is that you don't really notice the responsible owners, and why would you? They're not disturbing you, they're just walking their dogs and then going home.

Similarly, on Mumsnet, you get posters who say that all children in restaurants are poorly behaved. But that's not true. There are families with children who are behaving well and for obvious reasons you don't notice them.

And of course you'll only hear from 'responsible' dog owners. Who is really going to come on here and admit that they're too lazy to pick up the dog shit etc.

Having said that, I do know from my friends and my DSis, who are responsible, that they're sick to death of other dogs' shit. So that POV is common.

MarleyTheDog · 08/02/2021 21:13

Poorlykitten

@MarleyTheDog and @Mittens030869 a quick google will tell you pet ownership/dog ownership is on the increase and has been steadily for years. Your experience if growing up in a neighbourhood full of dogs is not indicative of everywhere

That depends on what they based the stats on and where they got those figures from. Dogs were rarely neutered/spayed in the 70’s. They were allowed to roam and obviously there was a high number of puppies born. These puppies were given away to whoever wanted one. Not many people owned pedigree dogs. The vast majority were mongrels. There can be no figures available when most people did not buy their dogs. Dog licenses were available but not many people would have bought one. Puppies were simply given away, or drowned.

Anyway that’s not the point of the thread is it?

Poorlykitten · 08/02/2021 21:26

It’s part of the thread in that more dog owners equals the potential for more irresponsible dog owners. Lockdown has resulted in a massive surge of people buying/wanting puppies...lots of those have been bought in a whim and are now ending up in rescues. Most of them haven’t been socialised properly either.

LadyMayoGoodway · 08/02/2021 21:27

Oh no @Aloethere dogs and their owners are allowed to do whatever the hell they want, o mean look at these in the past few days

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9234085/amp/Baby-boy-17-months-mauled-dog-playing-park-rushed-hospital-air-ambulance.html

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/two-girls-hospital-after-being-19797376.amp

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/first-picture-of-woman-mauled-to-death-by-dog-she-rescued-b918874.html%3famp

Of course there’ll be assholes like @tenbananasaday out defending the dogs and owners, probably blaming the wee children for daring to go to a park.

Goldenbear · 08/02/2021 22:23

Tenbananasaday, I'm sorry what? 'Compare' is the correct word to use. You must have misunderstood or need to revisit a dictionary as previous posters have stated they would judge poor behaviour of a dog or a child in the same way, I.e similar notes of behaviour is what they would judge. Please, please explain how this does not fit with their explanations?

'Arrogance'? It is your arrogance that asserts your ownership over another 'animal'. If you didn't believe this, you would not have a 'pet' dog to begin with.

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