Fucking bitches????

[SunsetSenora]

Called in to a group call tonight, group of 6 women I have known for a long time and have had weekly zooms with since March. I lost my mother a few weeks ago after a year of hell and am waiting to be able to bury her. I have not been calling into this group since mum died, because I dont want to be a downer to everyone on what is usually a quite light and fun chat. But I thought tonight I would be nice to say hello for a few minutes. They were in the middle of a chat about music they used to listen to when they were younger when I joined the call. And just kept talking about that. Like, not just one more comment, but about 5 or 6 with no end in sight. I get that I am not the centre of the universe, but would you wait to get round to checking in with a bereaved friend because you were still talking about good records to dance to? I ended up saying I had to go but think they are a bunch of fucking bitches for the way they behaved. YABU - yes, I would expect to fit it into the conversation later. YANBU - I would say it immediately.

I am sorry for your loss but is a group zoom call really the place for condolences?

Yes. Absolutely. 'The place for condolences' is the first time someone speaks to a bereaved person after a bereavement. Even if that happens to be in a Zoom call.

People should acknowledge something as huge as someone's parent passing. There's nothing more hurtful than people acting like nothing's happened. And for the OP's so-called friends to carry on with their banal little chitty-chat about music without even bothering to stop and acknowledge the OP's loss is beyond the pale IMHO.

In case it sounds like I'm over-invested, I absolutely am. I don't know the OP but similar things happened to me after my father passed away and it's really opened my eyes to how shit and selfish some people can be with this stuff. Do people really think it's acceptable to ignore bereavement because it makes them feel uncomfortable? And that really doesn't seem selfish and monumentally insensitive?

I don't really understand what happened. Did your friends acknowledge you'd joined by saying hello or waving? Did you acknowledge them? Did you speak at all or try to join in with the conversation?

I think its perfectly fine to finish a conversation before moving into something else, which asking about your mum would have been doing. But I think zoom etiquette is still difficult to negotiate for many.

And it isn't the first time you've spoken is it, as you've received messages and flowers?

Yes. Absolutely. 'The place for condolences' is the first time someone speaks to a bereaved person after a bereavement. Even if that happens to be in a Zoom call.

Fully agree with this (and yes, I have a fair few significant bereavements under my belt).

However @Bourbonic only two of the six have bothered to contact her and I suspect the flower-sender didn’t actually talk to her, just too the cowardly way out by sending flowers.

If they had been decent friends then they would each have contacted her individually and maybe also just before the regular Zoom sent another message along the lines of “Would be nice to see you on the call today, how you’re holding up” which would then have removed the feeling that they were not even thinking about her while they chatted about inane stuff.

These people are passing acquaintances at best and OP should think of them as such from now on.

@Embarrasedaf

Wait, did they say hello and greet you or not?

I don't stop a conversation to say hello to everyone who joins a Zoom meeting late. Maybe not the case here as the person is grieving, but in general I think if you join late, you wait until there is a lull in the conversation.

just too the cowardly way out by sending flowers.

jesus, so even the one who sent flowers is bad for doing so! really think some perspective is needed here.

@Pinkdelight3

just too the cowardly way out by sending flowers.

jesus, so even the one who sent flowers is bad for doing so! really think some perspective is needed here.

I’m afraid so. If you can’t be arsed to pick up the phone and talk to your friend (someone you talk to regularly), or because you have some bullshit excuse about not knowing what to say etc, then simply putting in an online order to Interflora does not cut it, sorry. It’s just to make YOU feel better.

I don't stop a conversation to say hello to everyone who joins a Zoom meeting late.

Blimey. Not even a quick 'Hi, [name of person]'? Is this the norm in Zoom calls? Hasn't happened in any I'm in. Unless it was a really highly populated call (I can see how it might slow things down too much in that instance) I'd feel rude not acknowledging someone's arrival, especially in a friend chat as opposed to a work meeting.

@HaveringWavering not every bereaved person feels like you do.

Personally I couldn't have dealt with phone calls from everyone I know when my husband died. I didn't really want phone calls from anyone to be honest.
And yes, people bothering to send flowers or little gifts was much appreciated. Just knowing that people out there were caring about me without putting me on the spot, was great.

And I quite understood that not everyone is great at dealing with death. That anyone reached out in whatever way they were comfortable with, was fine with me.

But a zoom conversation about his death? That would have finished me off.

[quote saraclara]@HaveringWavering not every bereaved person feels like you do.

Personally I couldn't have dealt with phone calls from everyone I know when my husband died. I didn't really want phone calls from anyone to be honest.
And yes, people bothering to send flowers or little gifts was much appreciated. Just knowing that people out there were caring about me without putting me on the spot, was great.

And I quite understood that not everyone is great at dealing with death. That anyone reached out in whatever way they were comfortable with, was fine with me.

But a zoom conversation about his death? That would have finished me off.[/quote]
It doesn't have to be a conversation – just a simple 'sorry to hear...' or 'how are you holding up?' type sentiment is sufficient. I agree not everyone deals with death in the same way, but I know personally I was badly hurt by some people deciding that the way to handle it was to pretend it hadn't happened. I accept it's hard to know what the bereaved person might want, though.

@Bluntness100

This is an extreme reaction I think driven by grief

I would message you privately after your bereavement I would not do more than say hi on the group call a few weeks later , with likely a “how are you” in a lull in the conversation, many peoooe wouldn’t wish the call to be made about them or their bereavement, many not wishing to discuss it in a group setting.

I suspect you called in with the expectation they would give you attention becayse you’d missed some calls and were bereaved so were angry and hurt when you realised they were just getting on with it and left.

I’m sorry about your mum but the reality is they likely were trying to be sensitive, for many people grief is a private thing.

But when you consider that of the 6 friends, 4 of them haven't even contacted the OP to offer condolences or any acknowledgement, I don't think you can assume they were trying to be sensitive.

I would go by your previous knowledge of them. Have they been good friends and caring people up till now? If so I wouldn’t dismiss them as bitches based just on this.
They may have not wanted to upset you. They might have have felt awkward and each waiting for somebody else to be the one to ask you first. These things are hard to judge. Very sorry for your loss x

@Grandfather

Your coming across as needy

You have got to be shitting me?

@saraclara there is a difference I think between people you hardly ever speak to calling up to talk about a death, and people that you normally speak to every single week suddenly deciding to stop talking to you because you have been bereaved.

On reflection a personal text message or email would be enough though, I can see that a phone call might not always be what the bereaved person wants. But I still think that far too many people send flowers instead of being proper friends. It’s a cop out.

I'd say yab a tiny bit unreasonable, because I imagine that was a bit of an awkward situation for them, like you, particularly on a zoom call.

I wonder if any of them had lost a parent? Also what sort of friends are they? Close old friends who go back years or a collection of say school mums/work colleagues?

I ask because I had similar with school mum friends after DHs dad died, they all knew my dad had died years before and the circumstances had hit me hard but I didnt eve get a "hope dh is ok" the conversation literally moved on to something else after I told them. It made me realise that they weren't true friends like others I had but more circumstantial friends due to the dc.

I also realised that out of all 5 of them none of them had lost a parent despite being in their 40s and 50s where as my dad died in my 20s, I think they just didnt "get it". It affected my relationship with them tbh but the dc have also moved on a bit from each other now and obviously lockdown got in the way of seeing them regularly.

I do appreciate though that what is massively significant in my life isnt much to them. for you op xx

Sorry you lost your mum. I had similar experiences when I lost mine. It really surprised me who was there for me and who wasn’t.

Later I realised they basically fell into three categories:

Some people just can’t handle that level of emotion face to face, but will work out how to be there for you in other ways. That’s pretty easy to get back on track.

Some people aren’t as good friends as you thought. That might be ok if you’re able to adjust but it will likely fracture the friendship. At the very least you also need to be careful with your own emotional health being round them.

Some people are just shitty people. Get them out of your life and be grateful they aren’t there any more.

And then there are the people who surprise you how much they are there for you.

Sometimes it’s people who have suffered loss themselves and just get it. Or who are just better people than you realised.

Sometimes it’s people who are better friends than you realised.

Sometimes it’s people with deeper feelings for you than you realise.

And sometimes it’s people who like seeing at your lowest. Be really careful with that type of frenemy. Just as you start to pick yourself back up, they are liable to give you a swift kick to try to keep you down.

@Grandfather

Your coming across as needy

This is ust unnecessary. OP just lost her mother.

@RedPaperLantern

Sorry you lost your mum. I had similar experiences when I lost mine. It really surprised me who was there for me and who wasn’t.

Later I realised they basically fell into three categories:

Some people just can’t handle that level of emotion face to face, but will work out how to be there for you in other ways. That’s pretty easy to get back on track.

Some people aren’t as good friends as you thought. That might be ok if you’re able to adjust but it will likely fracture the friendship. At the very least you also need to be careful with your own emotional health being round them.

Some people are just shitty people. Get them out of your life and be grateful they aren’t there any more.

And then there are the people who surprise you how much they are there for you.

Sometimes it’s people who have suffered loss themselves and just get it. Or who are just better people than you realised.

Sometimes it’s people who are better friends than you realised.

Sometimes it’s people with deeper feelings for you than you realise.

And sometimes it’s people who like seeing at your lowest. Be really careful with that type of frenemy. Just as you start to pick yourself back up, they are liable to give you a swift kick to try to keep you down.

I've noticed this. Excellent post.

Sorry for your loss, OP.

I dont think zoom convo is a place to bring it up. They were in the middle of chat - did you join late?

@RedPaperLantern

Sorry you lost your mum. I had similar experiences when I lost mine. It really surprised me who was there for me and who wasn’t.

Later I realised they basically fell into three categories:

Some people just can’t handle that level of emotion face to face, but will work out how to be there for you in other ways. That’s pretty easy to get back on track.

Some people aren’t as good friends as you thought. That might be ok if you’re able to adjust but it will likely fracture the friendship. At the very least you also need to be careful with your own emotional health being round them.

Some people are just shitty people. Get them out of your life and be grateful they aren’t there any more.

And then there are the people who surprise you how much they are there for you.

Sometimes it’s people who have suffered loss themselves and just get it. Or who are just better people than you realised.

Sometimes it’s people who are better friends than you realised.

Sometimes it’s people with deeper feelings for you than you realise.

And sometimes it’s people who like seeing at your lowest. Be really careful with that type of frenemy. Just as you start to pick yourself back up, they are liable to give you a swift kick to try to keep you down.

Beautifully put. This is all so true in my experience.

@HaveringWavering thankfully you only speak for yourself and aren’t any sort of authority on appropriate behaviour after a death.

It felt intrusive to me when people kept calling. Texts were fine. I could respond in my own time. Flowers were a lovely, non-intrusive way for people to send condolences and let us know they were thinking of us without having to have stilted conversations we weren’t ready for.

@SunsetSenora I’m sorry for your loss.

I dont think sending flowers is the cowardly way out. At least they tried to do something and for a less than close friend is perfectly appropriate, you've acknowledged the loss in a non intrusive way and let the bereaved know you're thinking of them.

Personal condolences can be added when you next meet.

I dont do zoom calls with friends but as pp have said I dare say an "etiquette" hasnt been established yet.

I found it awkward the only time I tried with old friends and that was with non personal catch up nevermind d addressing bereavement x

Personal condolences can be added when you next meet.

Or in the case of OP and her friends, not bothered with at all..

I'm so sorry for your loss

Grief is horrible.