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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
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17
KindKylie · 04/02/2021 21:21

I'm close to 4 lesbians, in separate ways (work, sport, extended family) and they're all, separately, either scared and upset by or angry with Stonewall's conflation of sex and gender and the assertion that trans women can be lesbians. These gay women are accused of bigotry, transphobia and being the oppressor when they have a problem with that assertion.. Same sex attraction is an attraction to the same sex.

My knowledge of and support of Stonewall would have been as an ally of these gay friends, so when I hear from them that they do not support Stonewall's work, then neither do I.

My DC have the right to trust what adults tell them when they are in school for the purposes of education. Therefore I don't agree think any lobby or political pressure groups should be invited in to deliver sessions or training.

DialSquare · 04/02/2021 21:23

Well if the definition of a woman is changed to anyone who feels like one, I'm no longer a woman, so effectively will be erased.

pumpkinbump · 04/02/2021 21:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Quaagars · 04/02/2021 21:23

and telling lesbians that we must now accept born males as sexual partners is not respectful and certainly not empowering women

Surely you like who you like?
Some will be fine with dating trans women, some won't be.
Whatever sexuality you are, you can just say you're not interested.

MintyMabel · 04/02/2021 21:24

@BrumBoo

No they don't. Believe me, I've tried reasoned debate. I might as well have screamed Terf for all the good it did.

BrumBoo · 04/02/2021 21:26

Some will be fine with dating trans women, some won't be.

Of course, but lesbains are same-sex attracted, @quaagers. There's a term for people who go beyond the sex spectrum and are also gender inclusive in their dating, that's pansexual. Why do you think it's ok for gender to appropriate sex based terms for gender inclusion, when it's harmful for biological women?

Quaagars · 04/02/2021 21:26

I'd hazard a guess that mumsnet has been infiltrated TRAs, with a sprinkling of woke parents who have yet to peak

This is just such crap, though.
If the votes go in favour, it's "see everyone agrees with us!"
If the YABU's start to creep up it goes "we're being infiltrated, fix!'
Seems a bit "stop the count!" Trump, it's along the same lines!

pumpkinbump · 04/02/2021 21:26

@Quaagars

and telling lesbians that we must now accept born males as sexual partners is not respectful and certainly not empowering women

Surely you like who you like?
Some will be fine with dating trans women, some won't be.
Whatever sexuality you are, you can just say you're not interested.

A lesbian who refused sex with a transwoman is called a transphobe.
pumpkinbump · 04/02/2021 21:28

I know for a fact that TRAs monitor mumsnet threads.

Quaagars · 04/02/2021 21:28

@mintymabel
Believe me, I've tried reasoned debate.

Same. Been on these threads long enough to know it's just not possible.

Quaagars · 04/02/2021 21:30

Are lesbians not women, @quaagars?

Yes, lesbians are women.

willloman · 04/02/2021 21:31

I'm very happy for the curriculum to be inclusive. I don't believe private orgainsations of any flavour should be heavily involved in delivering/devising content. Separation of Church and State and all that...

AnotherEmma · 04/02/2021 21:32

YANBU.
They are trying to brainwash children, and schools are signing up to it.
What other political organisation would be allowed such an influence on state education?!!

I recently applied for a primary school place, and in my research I discovered that one of our local schools is a "stonewall champion" school, I looked at stonewall's "educational resources" and was horrified. Ruled the school out.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2021 21:32

A lesbian who refused sex with a transwoman is called a transphobe.

Yes, this is the problem. Nice of you to handwave away the issues of a marginalised group you don't belong to Quaagars. Very progressive of you.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 04/02/2021 21:34

How are they "erasing women?"
I don't suddenly become not a woman any more and drop out of existence, or become any less of one by accepting people who are trans

Yet it's funny how people are constantly told that rejecting gender ideology and not pandering to demands is "erasing trans people from existence"
Do trans people suddenly stop being trans and drop out of existence when we say there are only 2 sexes and biology is fact?

BrumBoo · 04/02/2021 21:35

[quote Quaagars]@mintymabel
Believe me, I've tried reasoned debate.

Same. Been on these threads long enough to know it's just not possible.[/quote]
@Quaagars, whenever these type of debates come up your username always pops up. Yet whenever I have personally tried to engage you in debate, you refuse to answer. You literally ignore every question put to you. You, and many others cannot even define gender, you cannot give a tangible, factual or even generic 'box-ticking' of what separates males and females beyond biology. Then have the tenacity to whine on sames threads about how 'MN never listens to your side, it's just an echo chamber of narrow, transphobic views'.

You can't have it both ways. Either actually have hard facts to counteract what you believe are phobic, wrong or just plain dismissive views of gender vs sex right/safeguarding issues, or perhaps just keep to other parts of the internet where no one ever questions anything in regards to other's personal beliefs.

Graffitiqueen · 04/02/2021 21:35

YANBU. I don't want Stonewall and their misogynistic homophobic ideology anywhere near my kids.

They have a trans auntie and lesbian aunties who recognise reality and teach them about diversity and tolerance.

OldCrone · 04/02/2021 21:36

@Quaagars

Are lesbians not women, @quaagars?

Yes, lesbians are women.

Can male people be lesbians?
Whatstheweatherlike · 04/02/2021 21:36

@Quaagars

I'd hazard a guess that mumsnet has been infiltrated TRAs, with a sprinkling of woke parents who have yet to peak

This is just such crap, though.
If the votes go in favour, it's "see everyone agrees with us!"
If the YABU's start to creep up it goes "we're being infiltrated, fix!'
Seems a bit "stop the count!" Trump, it's along the same lines!

Ok, so as someone who clearly has voted YABU, maybe you could explain to me why you think it's acceptable for school safeguarding guidance to be overridden by a lobby group. Every single member of staff, governor, volunteer, visitor, speaker, maintenance worker,...has a legal obligation to abide by the safeguarding standards in schools. Why do you think Stonewall should be exempt?
BlueCatRedCat · 04/02/2021 21:37

According to Stonewall, nobody is a woman any more. You are either a trans woman or a cis woman - the latter effectively meaning "not a trans woman".

BrumBoo · 04/02/2021 21:38

@Quaagars

Are lesbians not women, @quaagars?

Yes, lesbians are women.

And here is perfect proof of my previous post. Cut out every part but what mattered to you. We all know lesbians are women, the question at hand was why do you think it's ok to erase same-sex terms to be gender inclusive, when pansexual already covers gender attraction? Do you not agree that lesbian is same sex attraction?
Adulthumanfemale2021 · 04/02/2021 21:38

I do not want Stonewall, or any other organisation which pushes Queer Theory anywhere near my kids. It's a travesty they have gotten away with what they are doing for so long. Stonewall and Mermaid's downfall cannot come quickly enough.

Quaagars · 04/02/2021 21:39

Yet whenever I have personally tried to engage you in debate, you refuse to answer. You literally ignore every question put to you

That is just not true.
If it's not the "right" answer, people pretend you haven't answered and ask again and again and again until you accept submit to the "right answer.

Marley20 · 04/02/2021 21:40

The day Stonewall go into my kids school is the day they leave school and start being homeschooled. That bunch of creeps shouldn't be allowed anywhere near children and I was a Stonewall supporter for many years previously but it's a completely different organisation now