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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
BrumBoo · 04/02/2021 21:41

@Quaagars, you have proved it on this very thread, that 'truth' is evident for all to see. Unless you do want to answer if you think male-born people can be lesbains?

Blakes77 · 04/02/2021 21:41

The reason replacing "sex" with "gender" across the board (Schools, NHS, Civil Service, Local councils)is bad for women and children is that if you can't name sex (the immutable fact of your biology and the way you are treated because of this) you basically erase the idea of sexism.
If you can't name it you can't fight it.
Stonewall, the used-to-be-gay-rights-campaigners turned misogynist lobby group are leading the charge on eliminating the idea of sex. If you have a daughter this is particularly bad news for her.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2021 21:44

I'm sure you won't mind answering the question again, Quaagars, for people who have not had the benefit of your previous comprehensive explanations of what you think a "woman" is and what you think a "trans woman" is?

LangClegsInSpace · 04/02/2021 21:46

I increasingly am inclined to think that any lobbying organisations should not be in schools, and activist type groups need to be either kept out or seriously limited in some way.

Yes, and this is the position of the government as well.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#using-external-agencies

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Any school that has properly followed government guidance will have given Stonewall (among others) a very wide swerve.

persistentwoman · 04/02/2021 21:47

@Blakes77

The reason replacing "sex" with "gender" across the board (Schools, NHS, Civil Service, Local councils)is bad for women and children is that if you can't name sex (the immutable fact of your biology and the way you are treated because of this) you basically erase the idea of sexism. If you can't name it you can't fight it. Stonewall, the used-to-be-gay-rights-campaigners turned misogynist lobby group are leading the charge on eliminating the idea of sex. If you have a daughter this is particularly bad news for her.
THIS

And good to keep this thread on point which is about safeguarding and Stonewall in schools.

Imabigfan · 04/02/2021 21:48

I do found it strange how people so openly and obviously try to stop people from talking about this. Should schools be engaging with organisations that are anti-free speech and want everyone to capitulate to a quasi-religious belief system? Of course they shouldn't! Keep your kids away from Stonewall unless you want them brainwashed.

DialSquare · 04/02/2021 21:49

Quaagars reasoned debate consists of:

"Just because I have a different opinion to you doesn't mean it's wrong'

I've already stated my argument I'm not going to do it again. Look back at my posts"

"LOL"

" I do have issues with self ID"

Strangely, the women she "debates" with are always happy to post their argument over and over again.

jj1968 · 04/02/2021 21:53

@LangClegsInSpace

I increasingly am inclined to think that any lobbying organisations should not be in schools, and activist type groups need to be either kept out or seriously limited in some way.

Yes, and this is the position of the government as well.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#using-external-agencies

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Any school that has properly followed government guidance will have given Stonewall (among others) a very wide swerve.

The statutory guidelines which schools must follow by law recommend Stonewall resources should be used in RSE lessons.

Appendix B, here: www.gov.uk/government/publications/relationships-education-relationships-and-sex-education-rse-and-health-education

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?
babbaloushka · 04/02/2021 21:53

At my DDs school, a pupil identified themselves as Mew/Mewself (apparently it's called neopronouns) and another student got an internal exclusion for referring to the pupil as 'she'. The school also had Stonewall on the PSHE curriculum. Go figure.

dumpling23 · 04/02/2021 21:55

You are not being unreasonable. For just the reasons you outline, I don't want Stonewall anywhere near my children.

To the energetic amongst you - if you are concerned, there's a campaign afoot to send freedom of information requests to public bodies (such as Councils) asking about their involvement with this sad excuse of an organisation. You can submit the FOI to an organisation that affects you, or to another in the hope that somebody else will come along and FOI yours. All the information provided is public. I've just done it for an employer parallel to my own - I hope someone will FOI my own employer soon. It literally takes no more than five minutes. Here is the link:
legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/04/shining-a-light-on-stonewalls-activities/?_thumbnail_id=451
Let's stop wringing our hands over Stonewall. Let's get them out!!

Whatsnewpussyhat · 04/02/2021 21:59

I do found it strange how people so openly and obviously try to stop people from talking about this

Yes, look away, nothing to see here, nothing untoward happening behind the scenes. Ooh look some kids drawing rainbows....

What kind of lobby group would want to remove the protected characteristic of sex that protects all females, including transmen, and remove child safeguarding for, mostly female, children?

EdgeOfACoin · 04/02/2021 22:00

@DialSquare

Quaagars reasoned debate consists of:

"Just because I have a different opinion to you doesn't mean it's wrong'

I've already stated my argument I'm not going to do it again. Look back at my posts"

"LOL"

" I do have issues with self ID"

Strangely, the women she "debates" with are always happy to post their argument over and over again.

Pretty accurate, DialSquare.

Happy to be proved wrong, though.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2021 22:03

Perfect, Dialsquare, it's uncanny!

OldCrone · 04/02/2021 22:06

Correct link for jj's screenshot:
www.gov.uk/government/publications/relationships-education-relationships-and-sex-education-rse-and-health-education/annex-b-resources-for-relationships-education-relationships-and-sex-education-rse-and-health-education

This document is dated 9 July 2020.

The guidance in this document was updated on 24 September 2020, but they don't seem to have updated the resources document to reflect their current position. Does anyone know how we can flag up this error to them?

jj1968 · 04/02/2021 22:08

I wonder how many people on this thread have actually looked at Stonewall's resources before coming to their decision. You have to pay for some of them, but many are free and can be found here: www.stonewall.org.uk/best-practice-toolkits-and-resources-0

It's not true that Stonewall go into schools as such, They provide educational resources and run training for teachers on supporting LGBT kids and tackling bullying. They did not teach or run sessions with kids directly.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 04/02/2021 22:08

Yes, Stonewall should not be publicly funded. The Equality Act places a duty places a duty on public bodies to foster good relations between people with protected characteristics and clearly Stonewall do not do that for reasons mentioned above.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2021 22:09

Great campaign, dumpling, thanks for the link! Very interesting blog too.

This is worth a read, about what legal risks there can be for companies following Stonewall advice. From a feminist lawyer:

legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance/

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2021 22:10

The Equality Act places a duty places a duty on public bodies to foster good relations between people with protected characteristics and clearly Stonewall do not do that for reasons mentioned above.

YY.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2021 22:11

At my DDs school, a pupil identified themselves as Mew/Mewself (apparently it's called neopronouns) and another student got an internal exclusion for referring to the pupil as 'she'. The school also had Stonewall on the PSHE curriculum. Go figure.

That is ludicrous.

BrumBoo · 04/02/2021 22:13

Happy to be proved wrong, though.

Me too. The slight trouble is, our dissident voice that is Quaagars has got themselves in a bit of a pickle in the last few posts. Either they:

Say they do believe male-born female-identifing people can be lesbians, which would be evidence of the erasure of biological women and their sex-bases rights (in this case, the right to say that sex-only attraction exists without being labelled transphobic), or

They don't believe transwomen can be lesbains, that those in gendered-female opposite-sex relationships are actually pansexual (as is the correct, non-offensive term), and they show themselves to be just as much of a 'terfy-bigot' as the rest of us.

Or, as I suspect, they will choose to totally ignore the question on the pretence that we're all mean and trying to trap them with crazy terf mind games, rather than actually pointing out the issues of sex vs gender rights, and how they genuinely effect women.

jj1968 · 04/02/2021 22:15

@OldCrone

Correct link for jj's screenshot: www.gov.uk/government/publications/relationships-education-relationships-and-sex-education-rse-and-health-education/annex-b-resources-for-relationships-education-relationships-and-sex-education-rse-and-health-education

This document is dated 9 July 2020.

The guidance in this document was updated on 24 September 2020, but they don't seem to have updated the resources document to reflect their current position. Does anyone know how we can flag up this error to them?

The document I linked to is the statutory guidelines which must be followed as the second document released on 24 September makes clear. The September guidelines are advisory but non-statutory and the government have announced they are being reviewed following the threat of judicial review: www.theguardian.com/education/2020/dec/15/education-department-to-review-schools-guidance-on-anti-capitalist-groups

So the statutory guidelines still stand and the DfE still recommends Stonewall resources which is presumably why Stonewall are still producing them. It's incorrect and probably actionable to say that schools are no longer allowed to have anything to do with Stonewall.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?
OldCrone · 04/02/2021 22:20

@dumpling23

You are not being unreasonable. For just the reasons you outline, I don't want Stonewall anywhere near my children.

To the energetic amongst you - if you are concerned, there's a campaign afoot to send freedom of information requests to public bodies (such as Councils) asking about their involvement with this sad excuse of an organisation. You can submit the FOI to an organisation that affects you, or to another in the hope that somebody else will come along and FOI yours. All the information provided is public. I've just done it for an employer parallel to my own - I hope someone will FOI my own employer soon. It literally takes no more than five minutes. Here is the link:
legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/04/shining-a-light-on-stonewalls-activities/?_thumbnail_id=451
Let's stop wringing our hands over Stonewall. Let's get them out!!

This is the list of Stonewall diversity champions. www.stonewall.org.uk/diversity-champions-members

Most local councils and universities are on that list.

Would it be worth doing similar FOIs to schools which are Stonewall Champions? Obviously some of the wording would have to be changed, but there seems to be concern on this thread about what is going on in schools which are members of the Stonewall champions scheme (I can't find a list of schools which are members, though).

FOIs can be sent to schools via whatdotheyknow.com
www.whatdotheyknow.com/body?tag=school

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 22:21

@jj1968

I wonder how many people on this thread have actually looked at Stonewall's resources before coming to their decision. You have to pay for some of them, but many are free and can be found here: www.stonewall.org.uk/best-practice-toolkits-and-resources-0

It's not true that Stonewall go into schools as such, They provide educational resources and run training for teachers on supporting LGBT kids and tackling bullying. They did not teach or run sessions with kids directly.

Thanks for pointing that out.

The specific bits on gender identity I was referring to are from the organisation's Introduction to Supporting LGBT pupils guide, which is a free resource for schools.

Here are examples copied straight from there:

“A trans child may say ‘I feel like a girl’ or ‘I don’t feel like a boy’ rather than using the word ‘trans’. They may come to school wearing clothes not typically associated with their assigned sex.”

“Often a child or young person’s words or actions are automatically attributed to their SEND (sic: special educational needs and disabilities) without considerations of other factors, such as their orientation or gender identity. This might include: preferences for clothing types or hair length being seen as a sensory need; fear of change at puberty; behaviours described as a new special interest, fascination, curiosity or phase.”

“When they are born, babies are labelled as a boy or a girl. When some people get older, they realise that the label they were given was wrong. They might say ‘I’m actually a girl’, ‘I’m actually a boy’ or ‘I’m not a boy or a girl’.”

“Use these discussions as a starting point to explore the different ways we express our gender (for example through our clothes, hair, or the way we walk), what ‘gender identity’ means and that not everyone identifies as a boy or a girl.”

“Only discuss a child or young person’s identity with their parents or carers with the child or young person’s permission.”

“Regardless of their age, a person’s status as trans is private. Schools and colleges should not disclose information – such as details about a transition – that could reveal somebody’s trans status to others, including parents or carers, staff, and anyone outside the school, college or setting.”

“It is important to ask a trans child or young person which facilities they would feel most comfortable using. Schools, colleges and settings should ensure that a trans child or young person is supported to use the toilets and changing rooms they feel most comfortable with, including the facilities matching their gender.”

“Ensure that trans children and young people are able to access residential or boarding accommodation they feel most comfortable in, which could be accommodation aligned with their gender identity, or gender-neutral or private space. Make sure that residential or boarding staff attend the same training on trans inclusion as classroom-based staff.”

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/02/2021 22:23

It's incorrect and probably actionable to say that schools are no longer allowed to have anything to do with Stonewall.

"Actionable" by who? Posters here aren't accountable to Stonewall.

OldCrone · 04/02/2021 22:25

It's incorrect and probably actionable to say that schools are no longer allowed to have anything to do with Stonewall.

Really jj? Someone voicing their opinion about their interpretation of government guidance is 'probably actionable'?

If the government guidance is not clear, it needs to be made clearer.