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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
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17
Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 19:18

Yes potentially, and there are no loud calls from trans people for the single sex exemptions to be removed.

Nonsense. There have been since the EA came into force, and there still are.

gardenbird48 · 06/02/2021 19:20

[quote jj1968]@gardenbird48

Misinformation like this

The woman (one of many) that got raped in a FEMALE prison by a male-bodied prisoner

Can you point to one case of a woman being raped in a female prison by a trans women in the UK, let alone many?[/quote]
so male-bodied transgender person Karen White has raped two women (so at least two offences but I think one woman was raped by that person several times), one of them was the woman who sustained serious injuries I mentioned above.

Then we have the woman who was raped and is taking the MofJ to court for failing to protect her.

The Daily Mail reports 7 sex attacks by male-bodied transgender people placed in women's prisons.

There may be some overlap in these number but there are still way too many. More than zero is too many.

How many rapes are too many jj? (and if you are intending to nitpick about whether they are rapes or sexual assaults I suggest you don't - it won't be a good look)

How many already traumatised women is it ok to lock up in a prison with male-bodied people who have a sex offending rate of 60% as I remember against the general male population rate of approx 7% (or it might be 17% - either way, the male-bodied people in women's prisons are far more likely to be sex offenders).

Why do you say these things jj? I honestly can't work out where your head it at with this and why you think this is remotely humane. Trans prisoners need a trans space, not women's space.

Honest question jj, for someone who claims to be one of us, do you actually view women as human?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8303753/Transgender-inmates-carried-seven-sex-attacks-women-jail.html

fairplayforwomen.com/trans_prison_stats_2018/

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 06/02/2021 19:24

It is always the same few posters who come and scold women for raising concerns about safeguarding. Telling mothers to shut up and get back in their box.

///// and you know what? I rarely see many of these posters on any other thread regarding women's issues. Odd. It's like they actively seek out those damned echo chambers they hate so much.

I've a question too ... how is it that women like many here challenging elements of trans ideology (the inert homophobia, safeguarding children from invasive and unnecessary medical procedures of healthy bodies, allowing children of both sexes their legal entitlement to segregated changing rooms for safety and dignity and the policing of language when taking about experiences unique to female biology. To state just a few concerns) equivalent to us supporting Section 28?

How?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 19:27

I rarely see many of these posters on any other thread regarding women's issues. Odd. It's like they actively seek out those damned echo chambers they hate so much.

I've never once seen jj on any other type of thread that didn't involve scolding women ineffectually for standing up for their rights, and just galvanising them further and making other women aware of the male entitlement involved.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 19:32

so male-bodied transgender person Karen White has raped two women (so at least two offences but I think one woman was raped by that person several times), one of them was the woman who sustained serious injuries I mentioned above.

The rapes White was convicted for did not take place in the prison estate. They are the reason she was on remand in the first place. She was also convicted of two counts of sexual assault which took placein the prison system - one for exposing herself to someone and I think one was either for kissing someone's neck or groping someone. No women should have to put up with this in prison. White shouldn't have been there. But it is not true she was convicted of rapes she committed in prison. I don't think it's nit picking to make a distinction between sexual assault and rape in this context because you are obviously using rape as an emotive term to misrepresent what took place. It is deliberate misinformation.

The woman who is taking the MOJ to court alleges sexual assault not rape. The MOJ claim the incident never took place. We will probably never know for sure because it's unlikely to be relevant to the Judicial Review in the same way that the Tavistock disputed Kiera Bell's account of her treatment but the judge ruled it irrelevent - it wasn't about her individual case but the lawfulness of the treatment overall.

Delphinium20 · 06/02/2021 19:36

Here's one from Illinois, US.

news.wttw.com/2020/02/19/lawsuit-female-prisoner-says-she-was-raped-transgender-inmate

Delphinium20 · 06/02/2021 19:45

And...if transwomen think they will be safe from being raped by men just by being in a women's prison, think again:

www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/12/22/inmates-repeatedly-raped-and-beaten-by-staff-at-nations-largest-womens-prison-doj-says/

Men are responsible for rape and sexual assault and seem to do this wherever vulnerable women are unlucky enough to find themselves. Women need less men in their prisons than more.

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 19:49

No women should have to put up with this in prison.

Or anywhere else. Hence why making spaces gendered rather than sex-based is a huge safeguarding issue and why spaces are sex- segregated to begin with.

gardenbird48 · 06/02/2021 19:59

@jj1968

so male-bodied transgender person Karen White has raped two women (so at least two offences but I think one woman was raped by that person several times), one of them was the woman who sustained serious injuries I mentioned above.

The rapes White was convicted for did not take place in the prison estate. They are the reason she was on remand in the first place. She was also convicted of two counts of sexual assault which took placein the prison system - one for exposing herself to someone and I think one was either for kissing someone's neck or groping someone. No women should have to put up with this in prison. White shouldn't have been there. But it is not true she was convicted of rapes she committed in prison. I don't think it's nit picking to make a distinction between sexual assault and rape in this context because you are obviously using rape as an emotive term to misrepresent what took place. It is deliberate misinformation.

The woman who is taking the MOJ to court alleges sexual assault not rape. The MOJ claim the incident never took place. We will probably never know for sure because it's unlikely to be relevant to the Judicial Review in the same way that the Tavistock disputed Kiera Bell's account of her treatment but the judge ruled it irrelevent - it wasn't about her individual case but the lawfulness of the treatment overall.

Karen White is a rapist and child abuser who has committed several acts of sexual violence against vulnerable people. One of the women Karen White raped was pregnant. Karen White is now going to spend a long time in jail.

oh, that's alright then 'she' only sexually assaulted a few vulnerable women who were locked up in a confined space with 'her'. I'm sure that will be such a comfort to all of the women who had the privilege to meet Karen White.

Do you have a little bit of empathy jj? Do you think the authorities should be disgusted that they facilitated this happening and that a number of women have been sexually attacked and traumatised by this person and it should never have happened??

tbf, as far as I'm concerned it is all beyond the pale and your nitpicking and accusing me of deliberate misrepresentation speaks volumes about you and how you view women.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-was-a-transgender-rapist-put-in-a-women-s-prison-

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-cautionary-tale-of-karen-white-the-transgender-rapist

JaimeLeeCurtains · 06/02/2021 20:00

Living in a state-ordered confined space, in permanent fear of sexual assault, and being placed against one's will in a constant state of mentally damaging high alert, is a form of torture.

Amnesty used to care about women prisoners living in fear of sexual assault.

CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 20:00

I'm curious as to why exactly Karen White shouldn't have been placed in a women's prison, JJ.

Can you clarify your thinking here?

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 20:04

@CorvusPurpureus

I'm curious as to why exactly Karen White shouldn't have been placed in a women's prison, JJ.

Can you clarify your thinking here?

I'm also interested in this response. Especially since JJ still insist on calling a rapist 'she'. Either Karen is a woman or not?
CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 20:16

I'm also interested in the minimalising, tbh. If Karen White's offences in a women's prison, as per JJ's account, consisted in exposing 'her' penis to another inmate & taking hold of a woman in order to 'kiss' or 'grope' her, then I think that's very much something that incarcerated women should not be subjected to by a male whom even JJ agrees should never have been in a women's prison & enabled to assault women.

But I'm still waiting to hear JJ's explanation as to why KW should or should not have been in a women's jail.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 20:16

@CorvusPurpureus

I'm curious as to why exactly Karen White shouldn't have been placed in a women's prison, JJ.

Can you clarify your thinking here?

Because she was remanded after being charged with rape and her prior offending history shows she was a clear risk.
CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 20:20

Thank you. So you think KW shouldn't be in a female jail because she committed sexual offences?

What about the tiny number of women who commit sexual offences? Where should they go?

Are we agreeing that transwomen who commit sexual offences shouldn't be held in the female estate?

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 20:21

Because she was remanded after being charged with rape and her prior offending history shows she was a clear risk.

Karen identifies as a women though. Where else should Karen have gone? You yourself evidently choose to believe Karen when they say they're a woman as well, so as a woman, where should Karen have been sent to serve a prison sentence?

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 20:29

@Delphinium20

And...if transwomen think they will be safe from being raped by men just by being in a women's prison, think again:

www.forbes.com/sites/nicholasreimann/2020/12/22/inmates-repeatedly-raped-and-beaten-by-staff-at-nations-largest-womens-prison-doj-says/

Men are responsible for rape and sexual assault and seem to do this wherever vulnerable women are unlucky enough to find themselves. Women need less men in their prisons than more.

I fully support getting male prison officers out of women's prisons. I'm amazed so few GC people seem to agree.

In fact I support releasing every woman in prison for a non sexual or non serious violent offence tomorrow, and establishing proper holistic rehabilitation schemes to actually help women offenders. I find the lack of ambition of GC activism utterly depressing. Because I'll tell you what, I bet if you asked women in prison what their biggest concern was none would say trans women. If you all really cared about women in prison you'd be taking action to try and improve prison conditions and getting some of them out, not obessessing over the tiny number of trans women in the system.

CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 20:30

Presumably if a male offender commits a non sexual crime - I dunno, maybe he embezzles his tax returns or kills someone while DUI or gets into a pub brawl & commits manslaughter - but then post conviction identifies as female, JJ would argue that that person should be placed in the female estate?

Have I got that wrong, JJ?

CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 20:31

Oh look! A squirrel.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 20:32

Are we agreeing that transwomen who commit sexual offences shouldn't be held in the female estate?

Yes I've said that unless they can be safely segregated some way.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 20:33

@CorvusPurpureus

Presumably if a male offender commits a non sexual crime - I dunno, maybe he embezzles his tax returns or kills someone while DUI or gets into a pub brawl & commits manslaughter - but then post conviction identifies as female, JJ would argue that that person should be placed in the female estate?

Have I got that wrong, JJ?

I think it should be done on a case by case basis after rigorous risk assessment. I don't think this is beyond prison authorities, they do after all assess rapists and murderers for eventual release back into society.
BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 20:35

@CorvusPurpureus

Oh look! A squirrel.
Suitably distracted from the hypocrisy and paradoxes yet? No, me either.
CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 20:37

So if I go to jail after fiddling my taxes, I could expect to share a cell with a male bodied person who'd committed an equivalent offence, & you think that's acceptable on a 'case by case' basis?

Should I be allowed to contest that?

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 20:41

@CorvusPurpureus

So if I go to jail after fiddling my taxes, I could expect to share a cell with a male bodied person who'd committed an equivalent offence, & you think that's acceptable on a 'case by case' basis?

Should I be allowed to contest that?

You wouldn't be expected to share a cell, its against prison policy for trans women to either share cells or showers with non trans women.
MaudTheInvincible · 06/02/2021 20:47

non trans women

Nice