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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Wotapolava · 06/02/2021 20:56

@CorvusPurpureus

So if I go to jail after fiddling my taxes, I could expect to share a cell with a male bodied person who'd committed an equivalent offence, & you think that's acceptable on a 'case by case' basis?

Should I be allowed to contest that?

It could be worse. You might end up in there with a Guardian feminist journalist who had evidence of your innocence shredded by Liberty HQ.
CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 20:56

You're firstly assuming a U.K. only situation, JJ. This isn't accurate for the US, for example.

It also starts from the assumption that 'transwomen' shouldn't be sharing cells or showers with 'non trans women' - that would simply be 'women'.

Why? Why can't all the 'women', including the ones who happen to be male, share cells & showers? What's different about the 'women who are male'? Why do they need to be treated differently?

Is it because - they're male?

Why can't they just room & shower with the 'other' women? Why is that an issue?

Wotapolava · 06/02/2021 21:02

@MaudTheInvincible

This has all come a long way from the OP. I wonder if the misdirection, monotonous derailing and enormous deflection have anything to do with a desire to stop parents discussing the very important point of whether schools should allow this particular lobby group any access to their settings, or influence on the content of their teaching.
Great point,

Parents should be having this debate on a private school website ( do they have one?) or at least the private county discussion board.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 21:03

@CorvusPurpureus

You're firstly assuming a U.K. only situation, JJ. This isn't accurate for the US, for example.

It also starts from the assumption that 'transwomen' shouldn't be sharing cells or showers with 'non trans women' - that would simply be 'women'.

Why? Why can't all the 'women', including the ones who happen to be male, share cells & showers? What's different about the 'women who are male'? Why do they need to be treated differently?

Is it because - they're male?

Why can't they just room & shower with the 'other' women? Why is that an issue?

Well you got there in the end didn't you.

I've never denied that trans women are born male, I've never said there are no physical differences between trans women and those born physically female - I think trans women are women, should be treated socially and legally as women in the vast majority of circumstances but that a bit of common sense and pragmatism should come into play in some situations.

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 21:05

I think trans women are women, should be treated socially and legally as women in the vast majority of circumstances but that a bit of common sense and pragmatism should come into play in some situations.

In situations where sharing a space with male-bodied people regardless of their gender could put women at risk? Or at disadvantage? Those kind of situations?

Impatiens · 06/02/2021 21:10

I've never denied that trans women are born male, I've never said there are no physical differences between trans women and those born physically female - I think trans women are women, should be treated socially and legally as women in the vast majority of circumstances but that a bit of common sense and pragmatism should come into play in some situations.

You don't 'deny' transwomen are born male (why would you, it's a fact) but you also state 'transwomen are women' when you know this is a belief that the majority don't share and you can't explain why transwomen should be treated socially and legally as Women.

If there was any 'common sense and pragmatism' in your view and that of other trans activists pushing this agenda, we wouldn't be in such a mess with it now.

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 21:14

I think trans women are women, should be treated socially and legally as women in the vast majority of circumstances

I would also like clarification on this point, @jj1968. Apart from respecting names and pronouns, how do you treat a woman 'socially'?

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 21:16

@BrumBoo

I think trans women are women, should be treated socially and legally as women in the vast majority of circumstances but that a bit of common sense and pragmatism should come into play in some situations.

In situations where sharing a space with male-bodied people regardless of their gender could put women at risk? Or at disadvantage? Those kind of situations?

Yes, it's not uncommon in the prison system for women to be treated in different ways. Some women may be excluded from using showers with other prisoners or sharing a cell either because they are dangerous or exceptionally vulnerable. Other women in prison might be treated differently due to disability, illness or a mental health condition. The prison regulations even permit a woman to be held in the male estate if she is deemed too dangerous to be able to be managed safely in the female estate. This all seems very sensible. A one size fits all approach is not appropriate in situations where people are very vulnerable such as prisons.
jj1968 · 06/02/2021 21:18

@BrumBoo

I think trans women are women, should be treated socially and legally as women in the vast majority of circumstances

I would also like clarification on this point, @jj1968. Apart from respecting names and pronouns, how do you treat a woman 'socially'?

Respecting names and pronouns is part of it, as is allowing trans women to use spaces inline with their gender unless there are proportionate and legitimate grounds for preventing it. It's not very difficult. Most folk are managing it just fine.
BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 21:18

@jj1968 I'm not just talking about prisons. I'm talking about every situation, where women would be vulnerable or at disadvantage due to being forced into spaces with male-bodied people. Do you just believe its prisons this applies to?

CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 21:19

Oh dear.

So 'transwomen' are a category that requires some pragmatism in prison, & so are 'dangerous women'?

You just can't hear yourself, can you.

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 21:21

as is allowing trans women to use spaces inline with their gender unless there are proportionate and legitimate grounds for preventing it.

Unless those spaces are sex segregated right? Which is a legitimate prevention. Along with other 'common sense' approaches due to safeguarding, which you say yourself if needed, as we're not denying that women in some cases need it around people who were born male.

Quaagars · 06/02/2021 21:27

I think trans women are women, should be treated socially and legally as women in the vast majority of circumstances

I would also like clarification on this point, @jj1968. Apart from respecting names and pronouns, how do you treat a woman 'socially'

See, I read this as respecting that they might be female, eg pronouns and as a person?
As in for example not constantly calling them he or they (they because can't bring to stay she but think for some reason saying they means you're being nice?
Or poo pooing them behind backs?
Respecting who they are
Etc
Unless you think living socially as a woman means sticking your pinkie out when having a cup of afternoon tea, going to WI meetings and wearing floaty dresses at all times?!

MaudTheInvincible · 06/02/2021 21:28

@Wotapolava
Parents should be having this debate on a private school website ( do they have one?) or at least the private county discussion board.

Should they? Why?

Why shouldn't parents be discussing an issue pertinent to parenting on a website specifically created to host discussions about parenting?

CorvusPurpureus · 06/02/2021 21:28

Transwomen aren't female, Quaagars. Even JJ knows that!

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 21:31

@Quaagars we're not going round this again. You cannot and will not explain what a woman is beyond biology, no matter how many times you're asked so I'm not sure what's with the sarcasm about 'sticking out a pinky'. I refer to trans people by their chosen names, is that not respectful? I do draw the line at calling rapists 'she' though.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 06/02/2021 21:35

Funny how a discussion of Stonewall's influence in schools ends up being exactly the same discussion about prisons which has been had for forty pages at a time many, many times before, isn't it.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 21:37

@BrumBoo

as is allowing trans women to use spaces inline with their gender unless there are proportionate and legitimate grounds for preventing it.

Unless those spaces are sex segregated right? Which is a legitimate prevention. Along with other 'common sense' approaches due to safeguarding, which you say yourself if needed, as we're not denying that women in some cases need it around people who were born male.

I think it very much depends on the space. As an example I do not think it is proportionate to exclude trans women from women's toilets because there is no evidence that allowing trans women to use toilets inline with their gender places women at risk.
Impatiens · 06/02/2021 21:39

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Funny how a discussion of Stonewall's influence in schools ends up being exactly the same discussion about prisons which has been had for forty pages at a time many, many times before, isn't it.
Yes
Quaagars · 06/02/2021 21:42

Transwomen aren't female, Quaagars. Even JJ knows that!

Yep, and I've repeatedly said that trans women are biologically male too.

I'm not sure what's with the sarcasm about 'sticking out a pinky'

Apart from respecting names and pronouns, how do you treat a woman 'socially'

I was referring to this, Apart from respecting names and pronouns, how do you treat a woman 'socially' as it seemed they were alluding to being a lady meant being a laydee in how they act or dress (or something lol) which, yeah, just no.

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 21:43

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Funny how a discussion of Stonewall's influence in schools ends up being exactly the same discussion about prisons which has been had for forty pages at a time many, many times before, isn't it.
Ultimately it's all about safeguarding. Stonewalls push in schools highlights huge safeguarding issues for children. Expecting women to share spaces with male bodied people is a safeguarding issue. It all comes around to the same thing, as long as a minority group and their beliefs get their own way about pushing their ideology out there (from as young an age as possible).
MaudTheInvincible · 06/02/2021 21:43

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Funny how a discussion of Stonewall's influence in schools ends up being exactly the same discussion about prisons which has been had for forty pages at a time many, many times before, isn't it.

Funny haha or funny peculiar? Grin

Impatiens · 06/02/2021 21:45

Stonewall should be banned from schools completely. They're trying to brainwash kids with a political, faith-based ideology.

They're anti-science, anti-freedom of expression, anti-women. It's wrong to allow that to be pushed onto kids as a captive audience.

OldCrone · 06/02/2021 21:46

As an example I do not think it is proportionate to exclude trans women from women's toilets because there is no evidence that allowing trans women to use toilets inline with their gender places women at risk.
.
Let's get this discussion back to schools. Stonewall think that children should be allowed to self identify as the sex of their choice and use the toilets and changing rooms for that sex.

Do you think that this might cause some problems jj? If teenage boys are allowed to self ID as girls and will then be allowed to use the girls' changing rooms and toilets?

As a teacher I've worked with teenage boys. I can see some problems arising with such a policy. Can you jj?

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 21:46

as it seemed they were alluding to being a lady meant being a laydee in how they act or dress (or something lol) which, yeah, just no.

No indeed. Being a woman is nothing to do with how you dress, act, think, what you like, dislike, how your brain works, your personality, the people who's company you prefer, the toys you chose to play with as a child, the hobbies you enjoy as an adult. Though sadly that's not what others are suggesting, especially to children and that is the whole issue of this thread.