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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
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xenomutt · 06/02/2021 17:55

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Datun · 06/02/2021 17:56

10 million a month now:

Haha! Ten million women! The first time in history where so many women compare notes, share stories, and empower one another.

No wonder sooo many TRAs want to shut it down.

Fantastic stuff.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 06/02/2021 17:58

Still, it makes a change to being warned we may be complicit in terrorism if we look at kiwi farms, or being collared for revenge porn if you point women towards a snap happy pervert in our toilets or, being accused of 'shoving bi-phobia down people's throats', if we wax lyrical about soulmates, or, 'decimating' the tourist industry on the basis of sex segregation and no trans tourist ever deigning to darken our doorstep, and, not forgetting, jeopardising trade deals between America and Britain, because we have to do what Joe Biden has done, or else.

Grin Grin Grin

Great posts as always Datun, and Ereshkigal and wellbehavedwomen to name a few.

There’s a wealth of coherent, rational argument on this thread. Pretty much all of it on one side of the debate, as far as I can see.

No wonder some thought #nodebate was such a good idea.

Datun · 06/02/2021 17:59

[quote CoffeeTeaChocolate]@Ereshkigalangcleg do you know if transgender trend and safe school alliance publish anything in minority languages?

I do think that there may be a large group of parents who may not even know that this discussion is ongoing given language difficulties and/or not being enough integrated into society to know where to look for court judgements.

Given that the only thing everyone on this thread seems to agree on is that the discussion should be as wide as possible, surely making sure that all parents at least have awareness of these discussions and the main points should be a no-brainer?[/quote]
coffee, ask them. It's excellent idea, if it's not already happening.

I'm sure it's on their radar, but asking can only be good.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 06/02/2021 18:01

During a long and I hope misspent life I have been in at the start or early days of many voluntary groups who wanted to sort out some wrong they saw happening.

(For instance, I was marching for gay rights before Pride itself existed in this country.)

In every single case, when the original objective was achieved the group/society/committee/whatever else did not say "Yippee! We've done what we set out to do! Let's hold a big party to celebrate and use up the rest of our funds, and then go home." Instead, they cast about for more things to do with their organisation. If they existed to get funding for a bench in a particular park, they started to raise funds for other benches in other parks, without looking to see if there was already a group doing that for those parks. If they had been founded to make the quality of the beer in pubs better, once there were plenty of Real Ale pubs around they started to -- well, have a look at Camra today.

Once the organisation was set up, and absolutely if it had even a single salaried person or person making any financial profit from its existence, it would continue, and cast about for new but related causes to strive for.

Stonewall was terrific when what we wanted was equal rights for people who were born gay, in particular the right to marriage and equal pension rights, but once those objectives had been achieved it started to drift about in a rudderless way until it attracted the attention of some rather unsavoury people who had been deprived of a previous organisation they'd set up in 1974 and been forced to disband in 1984 -- a fringe gay rights organisation whose main interest was slightly other than gay. It's not been there for its original objectives for a while now, and the agenda of the not-quite-so-benign has become a part of it.

It isn't surprising, really; it happens all the time. Persuading redundant organisations to pack up their dollies and go home is very, very difficult, and so long as they do no harm they can safely be left to atrophy for lack of interest and new members.

Wotapolava · 06/02/2021 18:02

Can't wear a woman T-shirt?
what does it say? or define?

Woman - independently liberated to cook, clean, raise children and work.
There just isn't enough hours or money in a day - thank goodness for partners or claiming Universal Credit.

If I have time can I fix the fence, paint the lounge, fit the flooring or I'll have to pay someone to do that too.
I need more hours but I can only do 25 - what should I sacrifice?

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 18:03

[quote xenomutt]**@datun, @sanluca, @TalkingtoLangClegintheDark, and especially @jj1968, the document I've linked is tangential to the thread, but very relevant to the interaction going on here. It's a damn difficult thing to read, but I think you would get a lot out of it jj. It shines a bright light on the psychological factors at play when you feel incensed by women asserting their needs.

www.dropbox.com/s/o7nkaiyt1dixrfg/The-Awful-Truth1.pdf?dl=0[/quote]
If I am incensed by anything it is the constant drip drip of misinformation which is used by some mumsnet posters to denigrate and scaremonger about an already marginalised group.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 06/02/2021 18:05

Thank you Datun, I will email them. I hadn’t thought about that before. I think that these topics are so important to our children’s well-being and that parental involvement is essential.

At a point there were a lot of references to (and misrepresentations of ) legal facts that I thought that some parents may struggle to follow the discussion. Then I realised that non-native English speakers might be cut out of these discussions altogether.

gardenbird48 · 06/02/2021 18:08

@Datun

10 million a month now:

Haha! Ten million women! The first time in history where so many women compare notes, share stories, and empower one another.

No wonder sooo many TRAs want to shut it down.

Fantastic stuff.

they are trying - they are on twitter now targeting the advertisers and calling for them to cancel their advertising contracts with Mumsnet Hmm.

They are incandescent at Joanna Cherry being appointed to the Human Rights Committee. Joanna Cherry is an absolute inspiration (and bloody Nicola still hasn't said anything about the death threats afaik - unbelievable!!)

Deltoids1 · 06/02/2021 18:13

there are no loud calls from trans people for the single sex exemptions to be removed

That’s absolutely not true. Have you read any of the submissions from trans people and lobby organisations to the Women’s and Equality Committee?
And you’re also incorrect about changing rooms. Of course it’s proportionate to exclude males from females changing rooms.

Datun · 06/02/2021 18:18

they are trying - they are on twitter now targeting the advertisers and calling for them to cancel their advertising contracts with Mumsnet hmm.

I'm completely unsurprised. The thing is, there comes a tipping point.

And this is it.

gardenbird48 · 06/02/2021 18:34

If I am incensed by anything it is the constant drip drip of misinformation which is used by some mumsnet posters to denigrate and scaremonger about an already marginalised group.

what misinformation jj? How are we scaremongering? We are saying that women want and need to maintain our legal rights to single sex spaces. There is evidence that undermining single sex spaces is currently irl causing actual damage to actual women - who are now having to crowdfund and bring court cases to try and get someone to listen because the authorities that are supposed to run things effectively for ALL of us are not getting it right.

The woman (one of many) that got raped in a FEMALE prison by a male-bodied prisoner who is now in the middle of taking the Ministry of Justice to court for their dangerous (clearly) policy and complete lack of risk assessment has suffered. The little girl who was sexually assaulted at knifepoint in the ladies toilets by a male-bodied transgender person who was already charged with sex offences and being escorted by a social worker. The woman who was raped multiple times in prison, suffering such damage that she may never be able to have children etc etc.

ALL of these (many) cases were preventable and in a normal society, we would expect the authorities to take steps to prevent them happening again. Instead we are in the situation that authorities and people with influence are taking steps and campaigning to make it easier for these offences to happen again.

Rape convictions are now down to 1%, I think we are going to need prevention rather rely on the law as a deterrant. I think not letting male people have free entry into enclosed spaces where women are undressed, sleeping or otherwise vulnerable would be sensible - no??

jj which of these points I make are misinformation or scaremongering, on their own I think they make a strong case so if you put them with the myriad other instances of preventable damage, distress, trauma that are being caused to women I think the case is compelling, yet many choose to ignore it. Why?

Is Amnesty (Internation and Ireland) right and us women who 'defend biology' are some sort of subhuman and don't deserve the same human rights as everyone else and don't deserve a public voice or political representation (yes, Amnesty Ireland backed by Amnesty International actually said that).

Feel free to provide evidence of actual situations (not some self-selecting survey from 6 yrs ago done in the US) about the actual situation of people you are campaigning for and some proposed solutions to the problems they suffer that doesn't involve removing single sex spaces.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 18:35

And you’re also incorrect about changing rooms. Of course it’s proportionate to exclude males from females changing rooms.

Well expert legal opinion disagrees, but there seems little point going round in circles, I'm sure there'll be a test case eventually.

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 18:40

@gardenbird48

Misinformation like this

The woman (one of many) that got raped in a FEMALE prison by a male-bodied prisoner

Can you point to one case of a woman being raped in a female prison by a trans women in the UK, let alone many?

xenomutt · 06/02/2021 18:44

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OldCrone · 06/02/2021 18:45

Can you point to one case of a woman being raped in a female prison by a trans women in the UK, let alone many?

There have been a number of sexual assaults. Like this one:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8886815/Prisoner-sexually-assaulted-jail-launches-bid-ban-trans-inmates-womens-prisons.html

Also Karen White's victims.

OldCrone · 06/02/2021 18:47

@jj1968

And you’re also incorrect about changing rooms. Of course it’s proportionate to exclude males from females changing rooms.

Well expert legal opinion disagrees, but there seems little point going round in circles, I'm sure there'll be a test case eventually.

What's the point of having female changing rooms if males are allowed in? Aren't they all mixed in that case?
jj1968 · 06/02/2021 18:55

You are just a troll. It took less than five seconds to turn up records of hundreds of sexual assaults in female prisons in the UK by women-identified men.

This is just a bare faced lie. There are only 11 trans women being held in women''s prisons in England and Wales, are you honestly claiming between them they have assaulted hundreds of women and no-one has ever done anything about it?

Thanks for giving a good example of the kind of misinformation I was talking about though.

xenomutt · 06/02/2021 18:58

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xenomutt · 06/02/2021 18:59

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bellinisurge · 06/02/2021 19:01

Kids Company scandal waiting to happen

jj1968 · 06/02/2021 19:13

@OldCrone

Can you point to one case of a woman being raped in a female prison by a trans women in the UK, let alone many?

There have been a number of sexual assaults. Like this one:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8886815/Prisoner-sexually-assaulted-jail-launches-bid-ban-trans-inmates-womens-prisons.html

Also Karen White's victims.

According to the MOJ there have been seven assaults carried out by trans people in women's prisons in the last 10 years - at least two of these were Karen White and the department made clear these assaults were committed by those who were born female but identified as men, non-binary or intersex, as well as people who were male by birth and now identified as female.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

I do not support transgender sex offenders being placed in the female prison estate. Karen White shouldn't have been there, and the MOJ agrees, the prison services have conceded she was placed in a women's prison in error, not that that's much help to her victims.

In contrast around 11 trans prisoners were sexually assaulted in the men's estate in the last year. This means trans women in prison are sexually assaulted at a rate of just under 10% annually. The rate of sexual assault for both (non trans) male and female prisoners is roughly the same, about 0.3% annually. I hope you agree this is a significant problem.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 19:15

Thanks for giving a good example of the kind of misinformation I was talking about though.

I guess it's a change from all your misinformation on every thread you post on.

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 06/02/2021 19:15

Excellent post talking

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/02/2021 19:16

I hope you agree this is a significant problem.

It is. There are lots of vulnerable males in prison. That doesn't mean they should be in the female estate.