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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
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17
JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 23:26

I'm prob heading off to sleep. Loved this interchange Smile

JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 23:30

@redpencil77 I did make the costume. Used to make a lot of props in those days. Mid 90s. I worked as a stage manager (amateur) Lot of fun. Smile

JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 23:45

And agree about Pratchett and his wisdom and foresight. Like I said above, so many important things in life to consider, outside the bodies we use as vehicles to do that.

Hermajestyswave · 05/02/2021 23:51

Are trans women women though?

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 05/02/2021 23:53

@RedToothBrush

Stonewall define homosexual as anyone attracted to the same gender (regardless of sex). This is quite problematic given that institutional homophobia is defined as when sex is ignored and that what being identify as is used instead.

The clue is in the 'sex' bit of homosexual. In reality Stonewall support homogenderism. Which is by default homophobic because it seeks to erase the ability of those who are homosexual to define themselves. It creates a situation where to say you are homosexual because you have a preference based on sex rather than gender, you are transphobic. And that in turn means that saying no to the opposite sex - if they identify as trans - is verboten. This is coercive and encourages a culture where lesbians need 'correcting' and there is support for lesbians to 'just try ladydick'. This is also known as conversion therapy in the world of understanding the word 'homosexual' accurately. It takes us back 30 odd years.

Until there is a realisation that no this is not fucking ok. It is not progressive. And no it really shits on homosexuals and does not allow them to identify as they wish or define their own personal sexual preferences and boundaries without prejudice, persecution or intolerance we are right back to the bad old days.

Being trans or supporting trans people does not give them the right to shit over people and force others into situations which make them feel at risk or unable to speak freely and express their own sexuality. There needs to be a massive push back on how this is an abuse of power and there MUST be a balancing act going on, which recognises this.

Absolutely this.
JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 23:59

@Hermajestyswave

Are trans women women though?
No
redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:13

@babbaloushka

I know of a mewself! Teenagers all push against conformity, with whatever trend is accessible at the time. I too was a goth, because my friends were and it felt good to be part of something. I think the neo-pronouns and the like is very similar to that.

Teenage girls en masse identifying out of their sex seems to be the product of the urge to be different combined with internalised misogyny. Not in all cases, but I suspect in many. The harmful potential of this is that they are given access to irreversible treatments that they are unable to consent to. If you had offered 15 year old me a pill that made me goth forever, I definitely would have (especially if my friends did Wink).

And that's not including the discourse on the safety of women and the dangers of self ID. Shouldn't be something advocated for or pushed in schools.

Exactly! Exactly the reason why caution should be used not embraced as freedom.

Me and being a grunger, babbaloushker. A part of my soul went with River Phoenix and Kurt Cobain because of their struggles, and Richie Manic when he carved 4 Real into his arm. Deep seated distress. And I would be distressed too if I as a teenager saw what my future as a woman held. And a part of their mind knows revent legislation will actively defend them by pursuing gender switching - an easier path than trying to cope with being bullied for being "different"?

Girls school with trans males: that should be the model of how it should be: BECAUSE those trans males have not suddenly lost their xx chromosomes when they decided to be male

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:14

[quote JoodyBlue]@redpencil77 I did make the costume. Used to make a lot of props in those days. Mid 90s. I worked as a stage manager (amateur) Lot of fun. Smile[/quote]
Night Joody - hope you act in more Discworlds post lockdown

redpencil77 · 06/02/2021 00:15

@Hermajestyswave

Are trans women women though?
Depends. They are not xx-chromosomed humans though - females, in other words
Whatsnewpussyhat · 06/02/2021 01:44

949 votes! Wow. Still 90%.

xenomutt · 06/02/2021 04:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Wotapolava · 06/02/2021 08:03

[quote Thewithesarehere]@jj1968
You sound like a broken record most days.
Who is paying you to post here?[/quote]
I am.
And I told them to put the change in the Stonewall charity tin...

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 06/02/2021 08:51

I never have to worry about him misgendering anything - they just teach them!!

The way it should be! You are so lucky.

Wotapolava · 06/02/2021 09:12

I noticed Murdoch and Lesbians were mentioned.

There are forces trying to push back at LGBT... for whatever reasons they choose.
Many people are annoyed by encroachment of groups.

As for feminism, I have never subscribed to it as there are many strands and the mainstream brand have done nothing to solve Jill Dando's murder or helped Diana.

When there is a connection to the mainstream media, why would I expect anything else?

Look at the state of the media losing money and begging for change. They brought destruction on themselves and some hankering after state funding after criticising Putin for it.

Ofcom have banned CTGN this week for criminality and one reason ( political affiliations with CPP ) was cited as a concern yet the BBC left that out. Interestingly.
If Ofcom are concerned about political affiliations then they have a lot of catching up to do.
Sport talk journalist recently started a peice about how great the BBC once was - then came the predictable part. SKY news have done a good job...

STOP RIGHT THERE!

The BBC have been allowed to appoint their own judge for the Diana inquiry.
Politicians could also fall on the expose.
And guess who will be waiting to trip them up should they lie?
If they are short of money they should get services out of other countries and allow them to set up their own broadcasters to reach the world. In all the years we were part of the EU we had to see things via British media eyes. Useful for keeping people ill informed - didn't it pay off well for one person though?
Why are the BBC stuck for money when they generate billions (as told to me by a TV licence agent himself). Ofcom failed with the BBC but the people have spoken.
I think their attitude over Diana, Jill and Caroline Flack says it all. And others who may be dead at the hands of the media.

Some organisations can't be trusted with a dead person let alone a live one.
Keep your eye on it. It will be interesting.

Wotapolava · 06/02/2021 09:29

Depends. They are not xx-chromosomed humans though - females, in other words.

What is the difference between Women and females - apart from age?

Lady, Woman, female,

Why those main three?

IWillSqueakAgain · 06/02/2021 09:38

Yep because it’s feminisms job to fix male violence against women and girls, that’s exactly how that works.

As it happens I wouldn’t term myself a feminist either, because the word has long since been misused and misrepresented. I stick to saying I’m pro women’s liberation. Because that’s clear.

Male violence is the problem of men to fix, not women or women’s political movement for our liberation.

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 06/02/2021 09:51

As for feminism, I have never subscribed to it as there are many strands and the mainstream brand have done nothing to solve Jill Dando's murder..

I think you might be mixing feminists up with the police.

prisencolinensinainciusol2 · 06/02/2021 09:53

I stick to saying I’m pro women’s liberation. Because that’s clear.

I'm bloody well using that from now on. Thank you Squeak..

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 09:54

@IWillSqueakAgain

Yep because it’s feminisms job to fix male violence against women and girls, that’s exactly how that works.

As it happens I wouldn’t term myself a feminist either, because the word has long since been misused and misrepresented. I stick to saying I’m pro women’s liberation. Because that’s clear.

Male violence is the problem of men to fix, not women or women’s political movement for our liberation.

Exactly this. Male violence isn't a woman's job to fix, and sad, confused males are not a woman's job to protect and give sanctuary to.
Wotapolava · 06/02/2021 09:58

@IWillSqueakAgain

Yep because it’s feminisms job to fix male violence against women and girls, that’s exactly how that works.

As it happens I wouldn’t term myself a feminist either, because the word has long since been misused and misrepresented. I stick to saying I’m pro women’s liberation. Because that’s clear.

Male violence is the problem of men to fix, not women or women’s political movement for our liberation.

It is firstly down to the individuals to fix themselves ( not sure if that's what you meant or men groups). I hear you though.

My problem with some feminists attitudes is how they oppose such physical actions but they have outbursts which are detrimental to others mental health.

But it's alright because at least they aren't being violent!

Ard77 · 06/02/2021 09:58

Queer theory forms the basis for the ideology adopted in recent years by Stonewall and other similar organisations and it has no place in schools or any other institution such as the BBC. Queer theory aims to undermine existing, universal concepts of sex, sexuality, women's rights and the protection of children which is why it's so popular amongst those who profit from the exploitation of women and children like the porn industry and the sex-industry. The sexualisation of children and the blurring of boundaries that protect them is a key part of this as is alienating them from their parents. Children are suggestible and, as many posting have pointed out, introducing confusing adult ideas based on an extremely dubious theory, is detrimental to their well-being. It amazes me that those who claim to have an interest in child welfare, that is the 'trans' child's welfare, never worry about the children having medical treatment and procedures that are invasive, demonstrably irreversible and potentially harmful; there seems to be only one possible way forward and it is always affirmation and transition. Schools should be prioritising safeguarding not allowing organisations who promote the interests of self-serving adults to influence their policies, their teachers and ultimately their pupils. Stonewall has misrepresented the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 and explicitly seeks to dismantle protections for women and girls. Stonewall no longer represents the interests of lesbian women. In essence, it is not the same organisation that fought for basic rights for gay men and women and for equal marriage; in fact it is actively opposed to lesbians and gay men who affirm same sex attraction now, in favour of trans-identifying heterosexual men. The Stonewall Champion system syphons money from thousands of organisations who are blindly adopting this policies. Check Stonewall's annual accounts for confirmation of the huge amounts they are receiving from the corporate world. Why isn't Stonewall putting some of that money into research to help young confused gay people who in increasingly large numbers, particularly in the case of girls, are questioning their sexuality and deciding that their natural feelings make them 'trans', that they are 'born in the wrong body'? Stonewall is not a positive force for gay people or for society anymore.

BrumBoo · 06/02/2021 10:05

My problem with some feminists attitudes is how they oppose such physical actions but they have outbursts which are detrimental to others mental health.

@Wotapolava again, would you care to explain or give examples of what you mean here? Because 'outbursts' really reads like you are suggesting 'women are upsetting others with their hysterics and that's as bad as violence'.....

WeeTorag · 06/02/2021 10:15

@Whatsnewpussyhat

949 votes! Wow. Still 90%.
Hey where is this poll? I'm not familiar with this side of the forum. I only found this thread thanks to Glinner's email. 🙏
Datun · 06/02/2021 10:23

@Jintyfer

Scroll up to the opening post and the voting mechanism is at the bottom of the post.

WeeTorag · 06/02/2021 10:26

[quote Datun]@Jintyfer

Scroll up to the opening post and the voting mechanism is at the bottom of the post.[/quote]
Ahh thanks. Just read this whole thread on my phone but have popped onto my Mac and now I see it. Thanks. Voted! 👍