..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

[ConcernedMum100]

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

Not being discussed with them I mean

Stonewall have an annual turnover of about £7 million... In the general scheme of things Stonewall are a small charity. In their most recent reporting period only around £700,000 came from Government funding.

£7 million a year turnover would be small for Amazon, for a charity it's pretty healthy I'd say. And imagine what any number of grassroots charities could do with £700,000 of public funds - for that matter, my kid's primary school's English budget for a year is £1000. Imagine if schools got that kind of money for, y'know, teaching and stuff, instead of Stonewall getting it for training and teaching materials which misrepresent the law and encourage schools to disregard safeguarding.

(Stonewall) have run campaigns about LGBT inclusion in sport sorry, I know it's pointless but I can't resist this one. Really?! Stonewall’s campaigning about LGBT inclusion in sport is campaigning for male-bodied people to be able to take part in female sports, not withstanding the dangers to the female competitors. Yep, great work in support of lesbians there

I think anyone thinking that Stonewall is still about gay and lesbian rights should simply take a look at this graphic showing how fast those words are disappearing within their own reports.

@RedToothBrush

Given Stonewall are run by a lesbian do not think that statement is just a little bit offensive? Do you really think Nancy Kelly doesn't know what she is?

Hell fucking no. Not given their homophobic definition of homosexual. This woman is either stupid, priviledged or doesn't give a fuck about large parts of the lesbian community. She's sold them out.

I think the key word there is 'them'. You are straight I take it.

I presume you feel the same way about Ruth Hunt, Linda Riley, Lisa Power, the lesbian staff of Diva and Autostraddle, the thousands of lesbians who have posted on the LwiththeT hashtag and been on demos supporting trans rights - all stupid, privileged, homophobic and don't give a fuck about lesbians eh? Like I said, this increasingly looks like a new form of homophobia, if lesbians and gay men have opinions that gender critical straight people don't like then they are immediately open to the most vicious attacks. Only the right type of lesbians and gays are acceptable now, the ones who agree with straight people about trans people.

[quote JoodyBlue]@redpencil77 got ya - the Newbury Bypass was the clue :) I've been chatting to young people recently, so sorry I assumed you were younger. I loved reading what you wrote. And I am so glad things worked out. Not disimilar story in my background really. I think most feminists struggled with the crap of being woman. But the rewards are great aren't they? I mean the real rewards, not the marketed crap :)[/quote]
The rewards really are great! Its a pity life is like it is - someone once said it's the other xx-ers who are "typical" that permit this to be undermined the most as they have a vested interest in protecting their own status in a group of other xx-ers and/or their attractiveness to xy-ers.

People have had it worse than me, I do feel I have had a lucky life in a lot of ways. But it still sucks when predominantly xy- friends get a girlfriend and they lose touch - I had a mainly boy set of friends as a teen - a few girls/sisters of the boys - we spent many idyllic friday nights hanging at the local park literally just talking and walking or back to one of their houses for pop or tea and "Hero Quest" or D and D boardgames, reading and sharing bits of Terry Pratchett books out to each other - that author saved my life. If ever there was a feminist xy-d human it was Sir Terry Pratchett.

It was innocent, it was me and 4 boys and I was one of them until my parents disapproved because "obviously I would get pregnant". It was the last thing on my or their minds - it just wasn't. So I had to give them up. If I had been xy-d it would never have been a problem. Just social prejudice and narrow mindedness. I have some close xy- friends now - everyone knows - me, my husband - them - know it's friends - we laugh at the same stuff. I'd never be asked on a weekend away to the Lake District climbing though - there still are limits.

That's what I mean about society should widen its "acceptability" of stuff. For every xy- human who wants to wear makeup they are using the portion I "should" be using!

Swampy! I wondered recently whatever had happened to him! An accountant with a mortgage? His spirit lives on under the HS2!

Well, I never expected to share this all tonight but it seems only acceptable to be able to preface genuine reasonable points on forums by giving backgrounds - and risk being taken apart - we are anonymous (not "Anonymous" the noughties Internet disrupters) but you have to to get ideas across.

I could be a 20-something, fast car owning, alpha male trolling on here for all anyone knows! But I suppose I wouldn't be here if I were.

[quote Thewithesarehere]@jj1968
You sound like a broken record most days.
Who is paying you to post here?[/quote]
George Soros. Is that what you want to hear?

@nothingcomestonothing

Stonewall have an annual turnover of about £7 million... In the general scheme of things Stonewall are a small charity. In their most recent reporting period only around £700,000 came from Government funding.

£7 million a year turnover would be small for Amazon, for a charity it's pretty healthy I'd say. And imagine what any number of grassroots charities could do with £700,000 of public funds - for that matter, my kid's primary school's English budget for a year is £1000. Imagine if schools got that kind of money for, y'know, teaching and stuff, instead of Stonewall getting it for training and teaching materials which misrepresent the law and encourage schools to disregard safeguarding.

(Stonewall) have run campaigns about LGBT inclusion in sport sorry, I know it's pointless but I can't resist this one. Really?! Stonewall’s campaigning about LGBT inclusion in sport is campaigning for male-bodied people to be able to take part in female sports, not withstanding the dangers to the female competitors. Yep, great work in support of lesbians there

A breakaway organisation to have xx-ed games? Keep closing it up and reopening a new organisation if it gets "gender-bombed"

(Seriousness should not be implied in my last 2 words)

Only the right type of lesbians and gays are acceptable now, the ones who agree with straight people about trans people.

Do you realise how ridiculous you sound? If "Ruth Hunt, Linda Riley, Lisa Power, the lesbian staff of Diva and Autostraddle, the thousands of lesbians who have posted on the LwiththeT hashtag" all believe that TWAW and they are all therefore open to having a relationship with a transwoman with a penis, are they lesbians at all?

@OldCrone

Only the right type of lesbians and gays are acceptable now, the ones who agree with straight people about trans people.

Do you realise how ridiculous you sound? If "Ruth Hunt, Linda Riley, Lisa Power, the lesbian staff of Diva and Autostraddle, the thousands of lesbians who have posted on the LwiththeT hashtag" all believe that TWAW and they are all therefore open to having a relationship with a transwoman with a penis, are they lesbians at all?

I would suggest they are better placed to decide whether they are lesbians than you are.

Thank you for the lovely support from you lovely humans on this thread - yes I existed as a teenager in the 90s - "lived" is a bit too positive for what I put up with.

Someone in my daughter's aquaintance has the neopronouns frog and frogself. You couldn't make it up. They (frogself?) demand to be addressed as such. I know they are just playing with language, but this pupil gets pissy if people misgender frogself. It just seems like another way to bully and control to me, but it has been so normalised people go along with it. Gen z think it's edgy and a way to differentiate themselves from their mainly Gen X parents.

@Al77

Someone in my daughter's aquaintance has the neopronouns frog and frogself. You couldn't make it up. They (frogself?) demand to be addressed as such. I know they are just playing with language, but this pupil gets pissy if people misgender frogself. It just seems like another way to bully and control to me, but it has been so normalised people go along with it. Gen z think it's edgy and a way to differentiate themselves from their mainly Gen X parents.

Sorry? Had to read that twice. The friend's pronoun is "frog"? I get confused enough he/she.

I wonder how this works in other country? Language rules are set? Does France or Germany hand over pronouns? Truly genuine question how other countries deal with this

I would suggest they are better placed to decide whether they are lesbians than you are.

Of course, they can identify as lesbians. But words have meanings. A lesbian is a female homosexual, a woman who is sexually attracted exclusively to other women. So how does this work if these women believe that TWAW? They must be open to sexual relationships with TW, because they believe they are women, even though TW are male, and the vast majority of them have penises.

So are these 'lesbians' actually lesbians or are they bisexual? Can they be said to represent lesbians who don't believe that TWAW, and who would not be open to having a sexual relationship with a TW with a penis? Why do you dismiss them as people 'who agree with straight people about trans people' and not respect them as people who understand their own sexuality? You sound quite homophobic.

@redpencil77 bless you :) I met Terry Pratchett once. I was in an amateur production of his Wyrd Sisters at a little theatre in Essex. I played the standing stone :) (it was a hobby, for fun, in spare time) Spent hours putting the costume together in papier mache - since we are sharing. He heard about and came to see it, in his big hat, in the the audience. He had a drink in the bar after. Yes I agree, he was a special human. Thanks for your post. I know it is anonymous, but it felt like a sharing.

@OldCrone

I would suggest they are better placed to decide whether they are lesbians than you are.

Of course, they can identify as lesbians. But words have meanings. A lesbian is a female homosexual, a woman who is sexually attracted exclusively to other women. So how does this work if these women believe that TWAW? They must be open to sexual relationships with TW, because they believe they are women, even though TW are male, and the vast majority of them have penises.

So are these 'lesbians' actually lesbians or are they bisexual? Can they be said to represent lesbians who don't believe that TWAW, and who would not be open to having a sexual relationship with a TW with a penis? Why do you dismiss them as people 'who agree with straight people about trans people' and not respect them as people who understand their own sexuality? You sound quite homophobic.

This is where the huge confusion comes in.

In the days when the sun was thought to go round the earth, more and more observations were made of the planets - more and more complicated hypotheses were proposed, cycles within cycles- until Copernicus (I think it was him) proposed that the sun being at the centre simplified observations.

There has to be a more straightforward future where definitions and labels are dropped - the only one that makes sense to me is label nobody on their sexuality and make that the normal

and swampy yeah - I remember him, in the news. I am glad you shared. I don't think you have to. Sometimes I am very cautious, as you these platforms have a wide audience. But I am glad you did today. Thanks mate.

Daughter just clarified that frogself is on tiktok not school. It was a conversation we had but I got the wrong end of the stick. Retraction with apology.

@A177 I heard of one yesterday. It was Mew and Mewself. Neo pronouns apparently. I mean, adult shouldn't take it seriously, should we? I mean, really? :)

[quote JoodyBlue]@redpencil77 bless you :) I met Terry Pratchett once. I was in an amateur production of his Wyrd Sisters at a little theatre in Essex. I played the standing stone :) (it was a hobby, for fun, in spare time) Spent hours putting the costume together in papier mache - since we are sharing. He heard about and came to see it, in his big hat, in the the audience. He had a drink in the bar after. Yes I agree, he was a special human. Thanks for your post. I know it is anonymous, but it felt like a sharing.[/quote]
Oh! You met him!!! That's amazing! Before lockdown my hobby with the little pencils was to track down as many amateur Discworld plays as we could - they loved them, even Dpencil2, who was only about 5 at his first, but laughed at the Librarian in Guards Guards and has been hooked ever since. When they are teenagers they will find my books and the treasure that awaits them.

He, like JKR, was never silenced. Thud, I think it was, where he discussed second and third generations of species settling in Ankh Morpork - that they were more conscious of being more "open" about their species, of the dwarves' open display of the mining rituals where their parents and grandparents hadn't because their aim of having gone to Ankh Morpork was to earn money and they tried their best to hide their species distictions..

...this is such a 300 subtle rage at society not to revert to historical "tribes" e.g. I am this thing, and that thing in an effort to belong to a modern day tribe, and not that tribe, they are like that. Gangs, if you will. And how quickly the world has reverted to this since his death. It's things like that which should me more important delivered by schools to children's brains rather than if they should be called "he" "she" "they" "it" "xe" or now, apparently, frog. (Attention-seeker, more like)

@Ereshkigalangcleg

At my DDs school, a pupil identified themselves as Mew/Mewself (apparently it's called neopronouns) and another student got an internal exclusion for referring to the pupil as 'she'. The school also had Stonewall on the PSHE curriculum. Go figure.

That is ludicrous.

I know, I couldn't believe it when DD explained. Apparently misgendering broaches the school's bullying policy, despite the fact that this pupil was she/her for 3 years prior, and not everyone can immediately forget that.

That's amazing you made your own costume - he often said he couldn't believe how his stories, which he would have written anyway, had caused so many people to be in plays, write, make the effort to travel to them etc.

Also Dpencil1 is at a boy's school - wonder how they can get away with that these days. Wonder how long until the unstoppable force of gender meets the immoveable objects that are boys and girls only schools. I never have to worry about him misgendering anything - they just teach them!!

@redpencil77

Also Dpencil1 is at a boy's school - wonder how they can get away with that these days. Wonder how long until the unstoppable force of gender meets the immoveable objects that are boys and girls only schools. I never have to worry about him misgendering anything - they just teach them!!

There's a private girls school - I think it's St Paul's - where the head teacher proudly boasts about all the transboys among the pupils

@redpencil77

I know of a mewself! Teenagers all push against conformity, with whatever trend is accessible at the time. I too was a goth, because my friends were and it felt good to be part of something. I think the neo-pronouns and the like is very similar to that.

Teenage girls en masse identifying out of their sex seems to be the product of the urge to be different combined with internalised misogyny. Not in all cases, but I suspect in many. The harmful potential of this is that they are given access to irreversible treatments that they are unable to consent to. If you had offered 15 year old me a pill that made me goth forever, I definitely would have (especially if my friends did ).

And that's not including the discourse on the safety of women and the dangers of self ID. Shouldn't be something advocated for or pushed in schools.