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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
AlohaMolly · 05/02/2021 20:27

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Seems ok until you realise they include adult males as women. They flat out refuse to say same sex attracted and apparently gay is more if a medical term. They think homosexual is same 'gender attracted'

YANBU. They’ve become a misogynistic, homophobic, intolerant, science-denying bunch of zealots and should have absolutely no place in our education system

This.
Stonewall are a political lobby group.

Schools (and the policeHmm) are meant to be politically neutral so why are they pushing this on children?

@Whatsnewpussyhat apologies if this has been covered but i can see lesbian and homosexual‘definitions’ in the pictures you’ve posted, is there a definition for ‘gay?’ I’m only asking because in the lesbian definition it says ‘some non binary people may identify as this.’ I’m curious if they say the same under gay as well.
RedToothBrush · 05/02/2021 20:28

Given Stonewall are run by a lesbian do not think that statement is just a little bit offensive? Do you really think Nancy Kelly doesn't know what she is?

Hell fucking no. Not given their homophobic definition of homosexual. This woman is either stupid, priviledged or doesn't give a fuck about large parts of the lesbian community. She's sold them out.

JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 20:28

and thanks @redpencil77 for sharing that - I just re-read it. I am genuinely grateful to you for it. Wish you well Flowers

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 20:30

@persistentwoman

Interesting how these discussions repeatedly get derailed. This was a challenging discussion about the problems that Stonewall poses as a lobby group seeking access to schools. Now we're treated to individual tales of personal experience and beliefs and why these should trump everything - especially in relation to women and children's safety and rights. Confused
They should, because xx-chromosomed females as teenagers perenially feel the same. Sorry our "experiences" are irrelevant to you "persistentwoman" - they are our experiences - ypung xx-chromosomed people should get accesd to Stonewall but the organisation shpuld not the be-all and end-all. What about practical advice for xx-chromosomed under 18s? That despite their hard work they will be persistently shat-upon because of their sex, let us as the xx-chromosomed adults be frank about this and have a "working party" to overcome THIS discrimination. I think that's the point people with their "experiences" are attempting to demonstrate. Piss off with your voyeur-dismissal - they are people's experiences and are equally as valid. This is the point of discussion - the topic has evolved naturally and centred around xx-chromosomed humans' rights.

You surely need to accept if this is the outcome of the origibal topic then that is the outcome, whether or not it matched the outcome you imagined.

JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 20:37

@redpencil77 you are taking the argument back to how crap society is for women and how that is portrayed everywhere from mainstream media, through porn, to popular culture. Is that right? I don't think you are wrong? I just think feminists thought they had solved the problem and so we took our eye off the ball too soon. Girl humans should be able to see a life as a female as a life on her own terms. You are saying you couldn't?

Elderado · 05/02/2021 20:41

I think Stonewall is a dangerous organisation. I work in a school and you would not believe the nonsense we have to put up with. The Head has swallowed their bull hook, line and sinker so we have their stuff everywhere. The kids are too naive to question. No one dares speak up. I dared to say something and now I’m enemy number 1.
It’s bad, but I dare not say more on a public forum.

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 20:41

@JoodyBlue

and thanks *@redpencil77* for sharing that - I just re-read it. I am genuinely grateful to you for it. Wish you well Flowers
Ohh thank you, Joody Blue, it's the past, I met a fantastic man - definitely xy-chromosomed as we have two xy-chromosomed little humans. He accepts me, I accept him, more than that we love each other after over 20 years of marriage and the ups and downs of what makes it.

I really one day would love to meet that RE teacher, and give her a piece of my very blunt mind - which I am learning to try to turn into assertiveness 3 years after the relief of an ASD diagnosis - I can understand myself better. Both parents I went LC/NC with at sone time or another, they are old now, neither would understand about autism or I would get the old fashioned "that's why you're weird/I knew there was something wrong with you" which woukd be hard to hear even as an adult. It's fine, life is OK!

But I think it's appalling xx-chromosomed children, some friends with my xy-sons have fewer rights than I did at their age - APPALLING! And they haven't got to their tricky teenage years yet. Let's hope with fake news and discussions about that - btw I am not saying LGBT/Stonewall is fake news people, before you pile on - but that through fake news discussions they may be more able to discriminate and come to their own conclusions.

I hope that no teacher would ever do what my RE teacher did and that there would be a backlash - good, because teachers need to be able to teach facts, discrimination - which is what the LGBT Stonewall discussion is about but also that there are ALTERNATIVE reasons the xx-chromosomed may feel like that not just funneled down one socially-acceptable channel

Thewithesarehere · 05/02/2021 20:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 20:45

@RedToothBrush

Stonewall define homosexual as anyone attracted to the same gender (regardless of sex). This is quite problematic given that institutional homophobia is defined as when sex is ignored and that what being identify as is used instead.

The clue is in the 'sex' bit of homosexual. In reality Stonewall support homogenderism. Which is by default homophobic because it seeks to erase the ability of those who are homosexual to define themselves. It creates a situation where to say you are homosexual because you have a preference based on sex rather than gender, you are transphobic. And that in turn means that saying no to the opposite sex - if they identify as trans - is verboten. This is coercive and encourages a culture where lesbians need 'correcting' and there is support for lesbians to 'just try ladydick'. This is also known as conversion therapy in the world of understanding the word 'homosexual' accurately. It takes us back 30 odd years.

Until there is a realisation that no this is not fucking ok. It is not progressive. And no it really shits on homosexuals and does not allow them to identify as they wish or define their own personal sexual preferences and boundaries without prejudice, persecution or intolerance we are right back to the bad old days.

Being trans or supporting trans people does not give them the right to shit over people and force others into situations which make them feel at risk or unable to speak freely and express their own sexuality. There needs to be a massive push back on how this is an abuse of power and there MUST be a balancing act going on, which recognises this.

I can't get my head round it! Things -laws - need to be factually based, and the fact is humans have xx- or xy-. However people's feelings should not be discounted, just not given as much weight.

And then that you might fall foul of all that complicatedness through no fault of your own then dragged through a court amd your life ruined...?

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 20:46

@Elderado

I think Stonewall is a dangerous organisation. I work in a school and you would not believe the nonsense we have to put up with. The Head has swallowed their bull hook, line and sinker so we have their stuff everywhere. The kids are too naive to question. No one dares speak up. I dared to say something and now I’m enemy number 1. It’s bad, but I dare not say more on a public forum.
Good for you - children need to know there are 2 sides to every story - anything that only projects one is inherently suspect
JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 20:46

@redpencil77 got ya - the Newbury Bypass was the clue :) I've been chatting to young people recently, so sorry I assumed you were younger. I loved reading what you wrote. And I am so glad things worked out. Not disimilar story in my background really. I think most feminists struggled with the crap of being woman. But the rewards are great aren't they? I mean the real rewards, not the marketed crap :)

Thewithesarehere · 05/02/2021 20:47

@Elderado

I think Stonewall is a dangerous organisation. I work in a school and you would not believe the nonsense we have to put up with. The Head has swallowed their bull hook, line and sinker so we have their stuff everywhere. The kids are too naive to question. No one dares speak up. I dared to say something and now I’m enemy number 1. It’s bad, but I dare not say more on a public forum.
I think the time has come when we should start naming and shaming these organsizations that are. Being run by such incompetent lot. How can a head of school be trustworthy and capable enough if they lack such basic critical thinking skills?
Datun · 05/02/2021 20:52

@jj1968

It's ludicrous to describe children who have gender dysphoria, as 'coming out'.

Why? The experience of pretty much every trans person I know, myself included, is that most of us kept the way we felt secret, sometimes for a long long time. It's no fun living with a secret that is such a fundamental part of who you are, I don't see why it's unreasonable to call finally expressing that part of yourself to others coming out.

So 76 kids in one school kept their gender dysphoria secrets for years?
Thewithesarehere · 05/02/2021 20:57

@Datun
What is this 76 kids thing? Can you please explain a bit?

MaudTheInvincible · 05/02/2021 20:57

@persistentwoman

Interesting how these discussions repeatedly get derailed. This was a challenging discussion about the problems that Stonewall poses as a lobby group seeking access to schools. Now we're treated to individual tales of personal experience and beliefs and why these should trump everything - especially in relation to women and children's safety and rights. Confused

Yep. Annoying but illuminating when seen in the context of 'no debate'. Interesting thread from Maya F.

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1357740732837208072?s=20

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?
Whatsnewpussyhat · 05/02/2021 20:57

@Whatsnewpussyhatapologies if this has been covered but i can see lesbian and homosexual‘definitions’ in the pictures you’ve posted, is there a definition for ‘gay?’ I’m only asking because in the lesbian definition it says ‘some non binary people may identify as this.’ I’m curious if they say the same under gay as well

Definition is the say for gay but with man/men instead and also that some lesbians call themselves gay. Says same about non binary too.

OldCrone · 05/02/2021 20:59

As for the 3:1 ratio of girls wanting to change as teenagers, they want to fit in; there aren't similar ratios as women as they have either settled for the life they have or perhaps, very tragically, have taken their own life.

@redpencil77
This paragraph didn't seem to fit with the rest of your post, which seemed to be saying that girls were just trying to 'fit in' by identifying as trans, but this paragraph implies that you think there is some sort of 'true trans' component to their transgender identification.

Do you think it is right that these girls are told that they are 'really trans' and are taken on a path of puberty blockers, followed by cross sex hormones to become sterile 'transmen', with impaired sexual function?

Do you think the adult women who would have been just like these girls as teenagers have reluctantly 'settled for' life as women, and wish they had been able to transition in the past? If so, why aren't they transitioning as so many men of a similar age are?

Do you have any evidence for the claim that some of them have taken their own lives because they couldn't/didn't transition?

You say that when you were younger you wanted to be a boy. Do you wish you could have 'transitioned' like the teenage girls of today? I didn't get that impression from the rest of your post.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 05/02/2021 21:00

I completely agree. Children should not be taught that being a girl or boy is a matter of which gender stereotype you best fit, or that being same-sex attracted is transphobic or that girls who want privacy from boys when undressing are bigots.
There is nothing progressive or tolerant about Stonewall. They lost their way long ago.

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 21:01

[quote JoodyBlue]@redpencil77 you are taking the argument back to how crap society is for women and how that is portrayed everywhere from mainstream media, through porn, to popular culture. Is that right? I don't think you are wrong? I just think feminists thought they had solved the problem and so we took our eye off the ball too soon. Girl humans should be able to see a life as a female as a life on her own terms. You are saying you couldn't?[/quote]
Exactly! "Problem solved" people thought - move onto the next one. But what few understand is change is dynamic and can be overrideen - I often thenk about the US - a Democratic president has just introduced this gender law - yet has -rightly IMO - repealed the law preventing Moslems feom certain countries coming to the US (in normal circumstances).

If a minority group are against the tenets (tenents?) of the gender law, whose rights prevail? So it now comes down to a hierarchy of rights which then lawyers and courts have to preside over.

Women have been shunted to the bottom and I think a lot of people are realising rights that have been gained in the past are being pushed aside with the potential for horrendous implications - and those who speak out are being silenced for voicing genuine concerns on behalf of those who cannot.

Imagine a generation of xx-chromosoned children turning to me when they grow up and saying "you did nothing" if it ever got as far as "liberal" laws allowing easier access for physical bodily changes, "you must have seen the implications". Or that predatory humans misused gender laws to gain access to xx-chromosomed humans' safe spaces. I will not be that person.

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 21:04

[quote JoodyBlue]@redpencil77 you are taking the argument back to how crap society is for women and how that is portrayed everywhere from mainstream media, through porn, to popular culture. Is that right? I don't think you are wrong? I just think feminists thought they had solved the problem and so we took our eye off the ball too soon. Girl humans should be able to see a life as a female as a life on her own terms. You are saying you couldn't?[/quote]
I am saying I couldn't. It is absolutely right for society to change their views on what people are "allowed" and "not allowed" to do. But it should not be at the expense of xx-chromosomed humans' fundamental rights to protection.

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 21:07

You would be blimmin surprised at the decision makers in any organisation. Probably that head feels he/she (they?) cannot do anything else without bringing disrepute to himself. News headline "Headteacher of ??? School says "(quote - sonething massively out of context-and-or-inflammatory)"

Datun · 05/02/2021 21:07

[quote Thewithesarehere]@Datun
What is this 76 kids thing? Can you please explain a bit?[/quote]
Sorry thewith.

It's to do with rapid onset gender dysphoria, or social contagion, or it being 'a fad'.

A School in Brighton has 76 children who either identify as trans or are gender fluid, which, apparently, comes under the same umbrella.

Clearly 76 of these children do not have gender dysphoria. And I'm trying to determine what some people think is the criteria for being 'trans'. And therefore needing medical treatment.

And the criteria for saying someone is 'coming out'. As of its a sexuality instead of medical condition.

Because deciding to wear different clothes, or get a different haircut, should not be something that is given extra special rights. It should be (and was) commonplace.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1051523/Gender-identity-Brighton-school-gender-fluid-education-transgender/amp

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 21:11

@OldCrone

As for the 3:1 ratio of girls wanting to change as teenagers, they want to fit in; there aren't similar ratios as women as they have either settled for the life they have or perhaps, very tragically, have taken their own life.

@redpencil77
This paragraph didn't seem to fit with the rest of your post, which seemed to be saying that girls were just trying to 'fit in' by identifying as trans, but this paragraph implies that you think there is some sort of 'true trans' component to their transgender identification.

Do you think it is right that these girls are told that they are 'really trans' and are taken on a path of puberty blockers, followed by cross sex hormones to become sterile 'transmen', with impaired sexual function?

Do you think the adult women who would have been just like these girls as teenagers have reluctantly 'settled for' life as women, and wish they had been able to transition in the past? If so, why aren't they transitioning as so many men of a similar age are?

Do you have any evidence for the claim that some of them have taken their own lives because they couldn't/didn't transition?

You say that when you were younger you wanted to be a boy. Do you wish you could have 'transitioned' like the teenage girls of today? I didn't get that impression from the rest of your post.

No I don't at all. Yet there may be children truly trans and not any of the other "classic" teenage rebeion factors (which seem conveniently ignored these days).

They absolutely should not. But it doesn't make some not trans. Sorry communication not my strongest point - I would have hated to be in that position myself - an easy option to puberty blockers as a teenager? INSANE! Yet knowing my parents it could have been the other way round - my mother might well have lobbied the doctor for in her twisted mind it might have been the "answer" to why I wasn't "girl-enough".

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 21:15

@OldCrone

As for the 3:1 ratio of girls wanting to change as teenagers, they want to fit in; there aren't similar ratios as women as they have either settled for the life they have or perhaps, very tragically, have taken their own life.

@redpencil77
This paragraph didn't seem to fit with the rest of your post, which seemed to be saying that girls were just trying to 'fit in' by identifying as trans, but this paragraph implies that you think there is some sort of 'true trans' component to their transgender identification.

Do you think it is right that these girls are told that they are 'really trans' and are taken on a path of puberty blockers, followed by cross sex hormones to become sterile 'transmen', with impaired sexual function?

Do you think the adult women who would have been just like these girls as teenagers have reluctantly 'settled for' life as women, and wish they had been able to transition in the past? If so, why aren't they transitioning as so many men of a similar age are?

Do you have any evidence for the claim that some of them have taken their own lives because they couldn't/didn't transition?

You say that when you were younger you wanted to be a boy. Do you wish you could have 'transitioned' like the teenage girls of today? I didn't get that impression from the rest of your post.

Probably - maybe - it's a "new" thing? Maybe there's more tolerance with "difference"? Maybe if "George" in the Famous Five had had it and she was OK I might have got the idea it was OK? (E.G. 1-sided half-information masquerading as "normalisation"?)

But it's not OK to permanently block someone's puberty as this is irreversible and should NEVER be condoned. What teenagers think rarely what their adult selves think - that's why there's a legal age of adulthood and those below it should be safe in the knowledge that adults protect them.

redpencil77 · 05/02/2021 21:17

@OldCrone

As for the 3:1 ratio of girls wanting to change as teenagers, they want to fit in; there aren't similar ratios as women as they have either settled for the life they have or perhaps, very tragically, have taken their own life.

@redpencil77
This paragraph didn't seem to fit with the rest of your post, which seemed to be saying that girls were just trying to 'fit in' by identifying as trans, but this paragraph implies that you think there is some sort of 'true trans' component to their transgender identification.

Do you think it is right that these girls are told that they are 'really trans' and are taken on a path of puberty blockers, followed by cross sex hormones to become sterile 'transmen', with impaired sexual function?

Do you think the adult women who would have been just like these girls as teenagers have reluctantly 'settled for' life as women, and wish they had been able to transition in the past? If so, why aren't they transitioning as so many men of a similar age are?

Do you have any evidence for the claim that some of them have taken their own lives because they couldn't/didn't transition?

You say that when you were younger you wanted to be a boy. Do you wish you could have 'transitioned' like the teenage girls of today? I didn't get that impression from the rest of your post.

Sometimes I wanted to wake up as a boy. Now I realise it was because society limited what was socially acceptable, and it is changing, but far too slowly. I think there is more to worry about in life for xx-chromosomed which is not being discussed