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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Impatiens · 05/02/2021 12:55

jj1968 you're ignoring one of the key points in Keira Bell's case - that she had not had 'stringent assessment' over several years, and neither had other Tavistock patients, before being prescribed PBs.

In fact, the lack of proper assessment was one of the many shocking issues exposed by the case, and one of Bell's reasons for bringing it.

jj1968 · 05/02/2021 12:56

You should take a look at the Dysphoric documentary which is currently on YouTube.

Funny how conspiracy theorists always inist you watch an hour long video on youtube rather than, for example, a scientific paper.

Not one of the people featured in that video has any experience in treating either trans kids or gender dysphoria. Their unevidenced pet theories are of as much interest to me as the dwindling number of academics speaking outside their field who claim climate change doesn't exist or that 911 was an inside job.

Wotapolava · 05/02/2021 12:59

@ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown

How many of the people transitioning in 40s and 50s started off as women?
None! All male.

And one borderline who is in late 20s with girlie looks and nails etc but says they don't want to transition.
I've known this one since he was a very young child and it didn't come as a shock when he told me because signs were always there.
He had a very grown up mind as a child. Brilliant sense of humour too. I dont just see a person who is different in terms of gender - I see a human being who has strength.
It is nice to see them liberated and being themselves.

Sorry if I don't always quote who I'm replying to.
As long as you see it. That's all that matters really.

jj1968 · 05/02/2021 12:59

Perhaps should also be mentioned that frequently the 'experts' relied on by gender critical arguments against trans children have strong links to the US evangelical movement and frequently also support conversion therapy for LGB people as well as trans kids.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 13:02

Funny how conspiracy theorists always inist you watch an hour long video on youtube rather than, for example, a scientific paper.

Funny, that's what TRAs do, too.

ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown · 05/02/2021 13:02

So why is it that teenage girls and middle aged men seem to be the main groups of people wanting to transition?

Impatiens · 05/02/2021 13:04

@jj1968

You should take a look at the Dysphoric documentary which is currently on YouTube.

Funny how conspiracy theorists always inist you watch an hour long video on youtube rather than, for example, a scientific paper.

Not one of the people featured in that video has any experience in treating either trans kids or gender dysphoria. Their unevidenced pet theories are of as much interest to me as the dwindling number of academics speaking outside their field who claim climate change doesn't exist or that 911 was an inside job.

Ok, let's focus on those who DO have experience of kids with gender dysphoria - eg the Tavistock Clinic who have so far been dammed for their shoddy practices by former staff, current staff, a Panorama documentary, the High Court and the inspecting body. Is that enough experience?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 13:04

JJ, when you get 76 children in one school saying they are trans, and an increase of 4000% showing up to gender clinics, mainly girls, it's a perfectly normal reaction to ask why. What are they being taught?

Which is the subject of the thread, of course.

Children can't consent, themselves, to puberty blockers. The judgement didn't say they couldn't be administered. They can.

The judges had thousands upon thousands of page of testimony. This has got nothing to do with armchair psychologists!

76 children in one school, 10 girls in the same year group at a girls school in London. These are all questions which need addressing.

Especially when unqualified adult male individuals are claiming that these children might need life altering treatment, that is being 'ripped away'.

I'm sure that's all of little interest to jj, Datun. It's all like claiming 9/11 was an inside job.

Datun · 05/02/2021 13:05

@jj1968

Perhaps should also be mentioned that frequently the 'experts' relied on by gender critical arguments against trans children have strong links to the US evangelical movement and frequently also support conversion therapy for LGB people as well as trans kids.
Haha!

Those judges! What are they like???

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 05/02/2021 13:05

I just want all of this kept away from my children’s school.

It is not the school’s job to teach them about various gender, gingerbread men or whatever they are talking about. I think they should teach respect, be against bullying and focus on teaching the important topics with a focus on English and Maths.

And didn’t someone say that Stonewall also advocates for normalisation of porn in schools? And includes sex toys in the curriculum? Or was this some other organisation?

I think some posters like jj thought that sex toys was great to introduce children to?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 13:06

small LGBT charity

LOL, yes it's run round someone's kitchen table and has no power

KaptainKaveman · 05/02/2021 13:06

That reference to Alex Drummond being a lesbian. I just don't get it. You wouldn't call a frog a toad would you? or a cat a dog? I'm genuinely not trying to be inflammatory here but I cannot see how a man is a lesbian. I thought females could be lesbians. Does that also mean a woman can be a gay man? are all the names fully interchangeable now? can a mum be a dad and so on? I genuinely don't get this.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 13:07

Does that also mean a woman can be a gay man? are all the names fully interchangeable now? can a mum be a dad and so on?

According to gender identity ideology, yes.

Wotapolava · 05/02/2021 13:11

@jj1968

Perhaps should also be mentioned that frequently the 'experts' relied on by gender critical arguments against trans children have strong links to the US evangelical movement and frequently also support conversion therapy for LGB people as well as trans kids.
I have heard that before.

I don't think this is the only sector you'll find nefarious connections too.

ConcernedMum100 · 05/02/2021 13:12

@jj1968

You should take a look at the Dysphoric documentary which is currently on YouTube.

Funny how conspiracy theorists always inist you watch an hour long video on youtube rather than, for example, a scientific paper.

Not one of the people featured in that video has any experience in treating either trans kids or gender dysphoria. Their unevidenced pet theories are of as much interest to me as the dwindling number of academics speaking outside their field who claim climate change doesn't exist or that 911 was an inside job.

If you’re talking about the Dysphoric documentary, that’s just not true. Not that I expect it to change your mind, but other people can watch it and see what they think. It’s full of scientists, psychotherapists and paediatricians, including Dr David Bell who is in deed an expert in children with gender dysphoria.
OP posts:
Whatwouldscullydo · 05/02/2021 13:14

Wasn't it fair play fir women who released their financial records?

No right wing evangelist groups in sight. In fact biggest donation was from lush who won't let women in wearing a woman t shirt.

gardenbird48 · 05/02/2021 13:17

I think it's very sad that those children at GIDS who all reports say were thriving

I think ‘thriving’ is not quite the word for those children. The GIDS study of 44 children (they didn’t manage to separate data by sex for some unknown reason) found ‘no measurable benefit or harm’, so no measurable improvement in psychological function - which is bizarre because that is presumably the aim of the treatment.

It also doesn’t take into account the fact that all but one subject continued onto cross sex hormones (and no, that doesn’t confirm that they are all actually trans - the diagnostics are clearly not that good otherwise there would t be increasing numbers of detransitioners). After two years on these treatments the bone density in most was significantly below normal range and at a time when children should be seeing a significant increase in bone density to prepare them for adulthood and a healthy life they are seeing no increase.

I am aware that your experience jj is vastly different to the experience of these children and you are looking back at ‘what could have been’. You cannot categorically say that you life would be better if... because it didn’t happen.

The online GP who sells puberty blockers and cross sex hormones to anyone who requests them (their claim) has said they have approx 6000 patients. Many of them are children and young people and at least one of these has died while taking unregulated medication prescribed by that organisation who have found a legal loophole that enables them to do this.

Keira Bell was misdiagnosed by GIDS at age 16 as having persistent gender dysphoria after I think 3 appointments. She progressed onto cross sex hormones and had a double mastectomy before realising that she wasn’t trans but just a lesbian girl with a traumatic history that wasn’t addressed at all.

There are many more girls like Keira emerging although they are ostracised by the trans community and abused online for attempting to speak about their experience.

In the real world if someone was diagnosed with a condition that required life changing medication and major surgery and that diagnosis turned out to be wrong the medical establishment would be horrified and make strong efforts to prevent it happening again.

Why is that not occurring in this case? Why are a number of high profile transmen speaking out and using caution in these girls yet many male people are advocating for these girls to transition?

How many girls ending up in Keira Bell’s situation are ok?

IWillSqueakAgain · 05/02/2021 13:19

Transing lesbian or gay kids because they are too butch or effeminate literally is conversion ‘therapy’.

There are countries where a gay man would face extreme prejudice and violence, but if the same man transitions(all the medical risks) then it’s viewed as ok.

gardenbird48 · 05/02/2021 13:20

@KaptainKaveman

That reference to Alex Drummond being a lesbian. I just don't get it. You wouldn't call a frog a toad would you? or a cat a dog? I'm genuinely not trying to be inflammatory here but I cannot see how a man is a lesbian. I thought females could be lesbians. Does that also mean a woman can be a gay man? are all the names fully interchangeable now? can a mum be a dad and so on? I genuinely don't get this.
The fragrant bebearded one that is Alex has some videos on YouTube where Alex expounds the joys of ‘expanding the bandwidth of being a woman’ by fixing cars while wearing lipstick or something.

Google Magdalen Berns - she has some fantastic commentary on these issues.

Wotapolava · 05/02/2021 13:22

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

I just want all of this kept away from my children’s school.

It is not the school’s job to teach them about various gender, gingerbread men or whatever they are talking about. I think they should teach respect, be against bullying and focus on teaching the important topics with a focus on English and Maths.

And didn’t someone say that Stonewall also advocates for normalisation of porn in schools? And includes sex toys in the curriculum? Or was this some other organisation?

I think some posters like jj thought that sex toys was great to introduce children to?

I think you have a healthy view like others.

Interesting you mention sex toys for children being promoted.
That's one I've not heard about which begs the question.

If young children are exploring themselves, at what stage should the law be suitably involved and how far should they go?

Datun · 05/02/2021 13:26

@KaptainKaveman

That reference to Alex Drummond being a lesbian. I just don't get it. You wouldn't call a frog a toad would you? or a cat a dog? I'm genuinely not trying to be inflammatory here but I cannot see how a man is a lesbian. I thought females could be lesbians. Does that also mean a woman can be a gay man? are all the names fully interchangeable now? can a mum be a dad and so on? I genuinely don't get this.
Yes, all that. And it's not surprising you don't get it. The words and definitions have become meaningless. Except, of course, none of the sexism and discrimination has gone away, it's become worse, but the words to talk about it are being removed.

According to the ideology adhered to by Drummond, sex is not determined by your biology anymore. It's determined by the way you think, or an inner feeling called gender identity.

It isn't, of course. Hence no women identifying as men beating real men in sports or clamouring to get into their prisons.

The rare condition of gender dysphoria, has been hijacked.

To the extent that not only do some men identify as women, they are actually women, and indeed female. And their bodies and genitalia are those of a female. With no alteration whatsoever.

Alex Drummond, who likes to wear denim skirts and uggs, archly claimed, that yes, women can be mechanics these days, whilst they donned a boiler suit to tinker with their car on camera.

APart from the denial of reality, claiming that the way you think can be so stereotypically female, that it actually makes you female is sexism on steroids.

I've never, ever been given a list of what these thoughts are. Because of course, it would expose the sexism.

Although one tw on FWR did say that they were jealous of the 'mean girls' in Hollywood movies and wanted to be one.

Wotapolava · 05/02/2021 13:30

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Does that also mean a woman can be a gay man? are all the names fully interchangeable now? can a mum be a dad and so on?

According to gender identity ideology, yes.

What happened with the suggestion of changing birth certificates?

If somebody suggested wanting to change their documented weight at birth, would it be taken seriously?

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 05/02/2021 13:33

I think that is exactly the point, when should the law/school be involved and how far should they go? I personally think that the school should focus on quite a clinical, very objective curriculum on this and keep in brief. With a massive focus on safety, respect and consent.

I resent any lobby group pushing any agenda and I do not want my children exposed to it. I read about a school accused of normalising porn. That is my nightmare.

I haven’t read anything personally about sex toys in school, but I remember it being discussed in detail in relation to something else. Jj was a very keen advocate for providing education about sex toys to children if I remember correctly (I was and am very much against it). Hopefully someone will come along and provide more detail.

Overall, in terms of sex/relationship education. I want to know what is taught to my children and be able to assess if I believe it to be appropriate.

ChloeCrocodile · 05/02/2021 13:42

I personally think that the school should focus on quite a clinical, very objective curriculum on this and keep in brief. With a massive focus on safety, respect and consent.

Absolutely this. Anything taught as fact in schools should have a decent evidence base (eg some people want to alter their appearance or bodies to match the opposite sex and it is illegal to discriminate against them). Things which are beliefs (eg people believe they have an inner gender identity) should only be taught as a belief and other view points need to be tolerated. I extend that to religion too - I strongly object to schools teaching "everyone has a soul" and "God is real" as fact, despite believing those things myself.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 13:46

Yes, I agree Chloe