Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
CuntAmongstThePigeons · 05/02/2021 13:48

Sorry haven't caught up with the whole thread. But couldn't not comment on JJ saying J K Rowling has threatened legal action after quite "mild criticism" I'm not sure that was the actual wording but I'm on the mobile app so cant check. But hollow howling at this!!!! Really aggressive and violent death threats only count as mild criticism. Wow. Just glad to see what page you're on with regards to what constitutes mild criticism. Luckily it's a different page if not book to where I'm at. But still good to know.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 05/02/2021 13:54

Chloe, I agree completely.

I also believe in god, but do not want the school to teach religion as a given. It should be taught relating different religions to each other and teach tolerance. I appreciate that faith schools may be different but my children do not attend a faith school.

I find it especially sinister with any beliefs that are lobbied into school by various organisations. Especially if we not are allowed complete transparency over the curriculum.

MintyMabel · 05/02/2021 13:58

It is the lack of definition that leads to these discussions

It is meaningless in reference to who has rights in any given situation. Because no matter how it is defined and what agreement is reached in terms of definition (which will never happen), nobody arguing against it at the moment will ever agree that trans people should have access to women's spaces.

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/02/2021 14:01

Do you not think that a definition that the groups, the nhs etc all agree on is important? What are we medicating kids on the basis of then?

One group says its not the wrong body, or stereotypes. The nhs criteria require 6/8 and when you take the wring body ajd stereotypes ones out there's not enough left to qualify?

If kids are being educated akd medicated surely we all need to know what it is that's being treated?

MintyMabel · 05/02/2021 14:02

Would that not concern you regardless of your opinion on us and our takes on gender

Nope, because I have actual issues which actually affect my daughter which are of far bigger concern and of concern to society.

JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 14:03

@jj1968

You should take a look at the Dysphoric documentary which is currently on YouTube.

Funny how conspiracy theorists always inist you watch an hour long video on youtube rather than, for example, a scientific paper.

Not one of the people featured in that video has any experience in treating either trans kids or gender dysphoria. Their unevidenced pet theories are of as much interest to me as the dwindling number of academics speaking outside their field who claim climate change doesn't exist or that 911 was an inside job.

It isn't true. Every single interview is either with a professional in the field or with a detransitioner. It is a heart rending series of four short films. I think perhaps if one has been through a transition process it would make a very difficult watch and I wouldn't recommend that. Self care is really important. But it is informative of the current discussions for those who are new to them and the reasons why people need support.
JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 14:03

JJ perhaps you are confusing it with t..rfwars which is more of compilation piece.

JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 14:05
this one. I would suggest watching if you are interested, but it is upsetting to me.
Wotapolava · 05/02/2021 14:09

Lush the make up company?

I just wrote a response and it disappeared.
Hmm.

Anyway, didn't they fund Dorpol PCC too for £30,000?
Granted, I don't want to divert the thread but are these companies giving large sums of money for nothing in return?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 14:10

It is meaningless in reference to who has rights in any given situation.

No it isn't. If you want people to believe in your ideology, so that they don't object to males in female spaces because you believe these people are actually women, you need at the very least to be able to make a case for why that is.

gardenbird48 · 05/02/2021 14:11

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

Chloe, I agree completely.

I also believe in god, but do not want the school to teach religion as a given. It should be taught relating different religions to each other and teach tolerance. I appreciate that faith schools may be different but my children do not attend a faith school.

I find it especially sinister with any beliefs that are lobbied into school by various organisations. Especially if we not are allowed complete transparency over the curriculum.

that reminds me, I remember reading a while ago that Peter Tatchell who has some extremely concerning views re. children and the age of consent was advising government possibly here but definitely in Ireland to ensure that parents would not be allowed to find out anything about the proposed RSE curriculum. He was very keen that we should have no visibility or input into what is being taught to our children.

He is quite chummy with the Irish (ROI) education minister which is a worry especially considering the dire situation for women in ROI.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3954935-Irish-Minister-for-children-appears-to-be-mates-with-Peter-Tatchell

Scrunchy95 · 05/02/2021 14:16

Getting at school children to push their propaganda is simply chilling. The fact is that their views are not shared by the silent majority of adults who wish trans people no ill but do not believe that a man saying 'I identify as a woman' magically becomes one and resent intolerant folk trying to force them to say something they don't believe and which isn't biologically possible.

The majority think their daughters deserve privacy from the opposite sex and see transwomen in female sports as cheats.

They need to cut the bullshit and we all need to be brave enough to call it out.

JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 14:33

@Scrunchy95 shortly it may become criminal to call it out in Scotland

Scrunchy95 · 05/02/2021 14:37

@JoodyBlue That's terrifying!

Wotapolava · 05/02/2021 14:38

I'm all for healthy discussion.
But when people go down the route of slipping in policy and laws without running it by parents first, you'll find yourselves in difficulty.
When people do oppose, they are labelled as guilty for trying to pushbike gay rights etc....
No. You shouldn't take liberty in the first place!

As for the argument around women and/or trans spaces which has been going on nearly as long as Brexit debates, it appears some staunch feminists want the end result to be third spaces for trans.

And got nowhere.
Ballsy, they will continue. Who would want to deny them that?

No children should be in communal spaces and should never have been caught up in such issues.

JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 14:50

@Scrunchy95 I agree and a stroke of genius for those who want to deny women rights to their language and their spaces and their solidarity. This is serious stuff for women.

ChloeCrocodile · 05/02/2021 14:53

to ensure that parents would not be allowed to find out anything about the proposed RSE curriculum

That is frankly ridiculous. Schools absolutely need to work in partnership with parents. Where that doesn't happen you tend to get a breakdown of the relationship between school-child-parent and that is almost always to the detriment of the child.

Any school worth their salt should have the scheme of work for PSHE (including but not limited to statutory RSE) available on request. Individual resources may not be so straight forward, but where a parents has concerns the school are recommended to bring parents in to discuss their concerns. Just shutting down is totally unacceptable IMO.

JoodyBlue · 05/02/2021 14:54

I might have gone slightly off tangent, the thread is about Stonewall in schools. But it is relevant because this conversation might be impossible to have in Scotland shortly if the "hate crime" bill is progressed without proper definition. So the AIBU question becomes - "AIBU to think that women should be able to discuss their sex based rights at all"

BrumBoo · 05/02/2021 15:04

@MintyMabel

It is the lack of definition that leads to these discussions

It is meaningless in reference to who has rights in any given situation. Because no matter how it is defined and what agreement is reached in terms of definition (which will never happen), nobody arguing against it at the moment will ever agree that trans people should have access to women's spaces.

Males (who identify as female) having access to female spaces is a safeguarding issue and diminishes sex-based rights in favour of gender ones. There categorically needs to be a distinction so people are very clear that gender and sex are not the same things, and ignoring the latter for a 'be kind' society has hugely negative consequences for women and children.
RedToothBrush · 05/02/2021 15:10

Stonewall are a sexist, racist, homophobic organisation more interested in power and money for itself than the agenda it was set up for.

Even the founders of Stonewall realise this.

They cannot be removed from schools quickly enough for me.

Davygran · 05/02/2021 15:11

@jeaux90

They tried to lobby government to remove single sex spaces They have tried to redefine what it means to be gay They have no place in schools They have no place in politics They no longer represent the groups they were set up to lobby on behalf of.

Stonewall are a shitshow of their former selves

100% agree with you. They are now a total travesty of their former selves
requiredwriting · 05/02/2021 15:13

If watching a documentary is too much, this is an excellent, recent article by a couple of therapists who have resigned from the Tavistock:

quillette.com/2021/02/04/first-do-no-harm-a-new-model-for-treating-trans-identified-children/

It's also interesting as it tries to address some of the possible reasons behind the rise in teenage dysphoria.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 05/02/2021 15:48

What happened with the suggestion of changing birth certificates?

Not sure if you’re already aware, wotapolava, but since the GRA (Gender Recognition Act) in 2004, trans people have been able to acquire GRCs (Gender Recognition Certificates) which in turn enable them to acquire a new birth certificate with factually false information.

So if the person was actually born male, the new birth certificate would say their sex at birth was female.

One of the main drivers behind this was to enable two people of the same actual sex to marry, when one identified as the opposite sex, because gay marriage was still considered unthinkable at the time. Now that we have same sex marriage, and equality of pension age, it’s pretty much redundant.

The process of getting one is not very onerous - it’s mainly about submitting paperwork, not about being actually assessed in person - but it does require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and a fee of £140, which is I believe waived or reduced for those on a low income. (And is nothing like the cost of acquiring British citizenship, for example, which is in four figures and I don’t think is ever waived or reduced.)

But there is a huge campaign by Stonewall and other transactivist lobby groups to get rid of the requirement for a diagnosis of GD, and instead to base it purely on self ID. The government has said no to this for now at least, although the Women and Equalities Select Committee is still trying to push for it, but it looks like they will reduce the fee to a nominal amount.

Stonewall also want the age at which a GRC can be acquired to be lowered from 18 to 16, and they actively want to remove the single sex exemptions (that currently allow some single sex spaces and services to be genuinely single sex, with or without a GRC) from the Equality Act of 2010 - which would significantly impact on schoolchildren, particularly girls.

This tax-payer funded political lobby group which is actively trying to undermine girls’ rights and safety shouldn’t be anywhere near schools, IMO.

YANBU, obviously, OP.

OldCrone · 05/02/2021 15:50

The claim that any child who is a bit gender nonconforming will be first transed by the school, who will then force them to medically trans is hyperbolic nonsense.

I think this is my comment you're referring to, but that's not what I said. I said that children who state they are trans are being affirmed in this with their names changed and being allowed to use opposite sex toilets and changing rooms without their parents' consent, and without their parents even being informed that this is happening. I did not make any comment about gender nonconforming children who don't identify as transgender.

And it's not 'hyperbolic nonsense' to suggest that this might lead to medical transition. In other countries there have been cases where there have been attempts to remove a child from their parents because their parents didn't 'affirm their gender identity'. This could lead to medical transition with the parents having no say, even though they may have good reasons to believe that the child's confusion about their 'gender identity' has come about because of trauma or internalised homophobia.

This is a failure of safeguarding, because the schools have no knowledge of the details of the child's life which might be causing them to identify as transgender. Parents should be informed about this. Children who identify as trans should not be excluded from normal safeguarding procedures.

Wotapolava · 05/02/2021 16:16

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark

Thank you. Star

I see these arguments everywhere. So much attention is paid to it where other issues not given so much support - if any.

It's a b.s. world for some.