..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

[ConcernedMum100]

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

.. Flying Scotsman of gravy trains.

Quality from Vermeil

(Sorry if I've spelt your name wrong)

I would like to thank Qaagars for doing such a great job of illustrating the problem.

Sometimes this really feels like arguing with a believer about some religion.

Sometimes this new fangled ideology seems like a new religion.

I’m with you OP. I don’t want them anywhere near my child’s education.

I actually brought stonewall into our school, and felt it was really positive. This was over a decade ago and back when their work supported young gay and lesbian teenagers. I don't think they do much of that now, do they?

The Dice Game was mentioned upthread, and a pp has just mentioned The Proud Trust, who I think were responsible for it. Google The Dice Game, aimed at children, which asks about body parts, orifices and objects, and ask yourself if you believe this is appropriate in schools.

I think it's horrific, and borderline abusive.

@Whitestick

I actually brought stonewall into our school, and felt it was really positive. This was over a decade ago and back when their work supported young gay and lesbian teenagers. I don't think they do much of that now, do they?

Personally I think they'd struggle given they could describe two male individuals as being in a lesbian relationship.

The whole point of stonewall was to work on societal prejudice towards gay men and lesbians. To advocate on their behalf and bring gay rights into the same arena as heterosexual rights.

Except now, a heterosexual relationship can call itself lesbian or gay and stonewall fight to legitimise that. On their behalf, bearded Alex Drummond, in a relationship with a woman, went into schools as an example of a lesbian in a lesbian relationship. Who famously claimed they could 'bring out a woman's inner lesbian'.

Stonewall are taking gay rights backwards.

tofu

I believe there were also SW learning packs the last lock down which placed the first person to have re assignment surgery ( a racing driver who ditched their own kids to hide their "masculinity " ) alongside Martin Luther King as a person to research. In a pack aimed at primary school.

YABU - are you also campaigning to bring back section 28?

@prisencolinensinainciusol2

I used to be a supporter of Stonewall.

I now think they are harmful.

Same

Yesterday, I posted about an exercise my DC have been set at school for LGBT+ history month involving a lightbulb "Sym-bulb". The teacher running it mentioned their involvement with the school's Stonewall Club. I've tracked down the material, and it's actually not Stonewall, it's from Proud Trust. Having read through it, I am sure the agenda is pushing down safeguarding and sex based barriers (particularly in the area of sport and facilities|) that are there for very good reasons, not to mention the bending of language with phrases like "gender assigned at birth." The emphasis is very much on the T.

lgbtplushistorymonth.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/LGBT-History-Month-Pack-2021.pdf

@EveryDayIsADuvetDay

YABU - are you also campaigning to bring back section 28?

This is meaningless. And it's beginning to look ridiculous, too.

Section 28

...stated that a local authority "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality"

Stonewall have decided that homosexuality can now be a relationship between a male and a female. It's been completely disappeared.

Let me ask posters who talk about section 28 as a gotcha to inform everyone how they are going to promote homosexuality, if it can be defined as what most people consider to be heterosexuality!

Who's disappearing homosexuality again?

@EveryDayIsADuvetDay

YABU - are you also campaigning to bring back section 28?

Perhaps you missed the part of my OP which praised Stonewall for their previous work in the fight for gay rights, and the bit where I said it's important children learn about diversity including families with same-sex parents?

Trans rights activists aren't fighting for equality, (which they already have by the way) they're fighting to take rights away from other people and compel people to believe in a quasi-religious ideology. In the process, young children are being damaged irreversibly and I really think if you're supporting that you need to ask yourself some serious questions.

You're entitled to disagree with me, but it would appear you're very much in the minority, thankfully.

@EveryDayIsADuvetDay

YABU - are you also campaigning to bring back section 28?

What has s28 got to do with this? Two of the founding members of Stonewall and many other lesbian and gay campaigners who actually fought for gay rights in the 70s and 80s are now fighting to preserve the definition of themselves as same sex attracted.

Gay rights was about gay people having the same rights as others - freedom to have a relationship, freedom to get married and to not be discriminated against.

What rights (actual rights) do trans people not have compared with other people? They are protected against discrimination (pc if Gender Reassignment in the EA 2010), they are free to have relationships and get married.

My over all view is to be grateful for those who.put themselves on the line to advance rights for those who felt differently but had no voice.
This wasn't available in my years of schooling and it was difficult for those who had to live with knowing and not being able to express themselves to adults.

Although children were expressing themselves to other children and engaging or exploring themselves.
Thankfully, I did explore myself and I'm glad I did because I know what I like. Being female, I think it is important because its a long standing mainstream view that males explore themselves - often the subject of jokes.

Women - not so much discussed about in these instances. Would I be right in saying, moreover in feminist and womens groups?
Sure girls have convos with friends but you get my point?

Getting back on point, help groups are needed.

Awareness is fine. I told my children from a young age that if they were different, it is perfectly fine. I would never encourage them and it won't be a problem if either of them were having those feelings and I am here to listen.

In my view, that is all that needs to be said. I wouldn't want them keeping anything in.

1. Because it hurts
2. It is a wasted life.

The only thing better than seeing someone liberated is knowing you can help to liberate them yourself.

Great discussion and I can sense the dedication from posters whether agreeing or disagreeing.
All of it worth reading.

YABU - are you also campaigning to bring back section 28?

RTFT

the trotting out of Section 28 really indicates a lack of awareness of what the section 28 protests were about and of what the current issues are for gender identity philosophy in society - it is apples and cabbages - there is no comparison

*If THAT were true, we'd be seeing equal numbers of middle aged and older women coming out as trans NOW. We are not.

An inquiry is desperately needed into the massive increase in girls declaring themselves trans*

Interesting.
I dont know any young children who are transitioning or want to.
All the trans I know are 40s and 50s.

An inquiry? What do you think is going on?

I think I know but I won't surmise.

How many of the people transitioning in 40s and 50s started off as women?

YABU - are you also campaigning to bring back section 28?

We can all see right through the false comparisons and emotional blackmail used to shut down and silence women.

What we do know is that 80% of children who are 'gender questioning' if they have no intervention will settle down in their body sometime after puberty and all will be fine. Many posters on here have reported similar feelings.

What we also know is that when gender dysphoria is persistent and insistent and lasts into the first stages of puberty those children almost always go on to be trans adults. Gender clinics are well aware of this, which is why it has been the policy at GIDS to wait until puberty has actually begun before blockers might be proscribed. Around one in 200,000 young people were being proscribed blockers by GIDS annually prior to the Kiera Bell case and most of them were 15 and over. That's 161 people out of nearly 3000 referrals to the services and the vast majority of gender discordant children will never get anywhere near GIDS. The children receiving treatment were exceptional and had undergone stringent assessment over several years.

The claim that any child who is a bit gender nonconforming will be first transed by the school, who will then force them to medically trans is hyperbolic nonsense. That this is all some devious plot by a small LGBT charity (often it's claimed ultimately controlled by trans Jewish billionaires) even more so. Pure conspiracy theory on a level with Qanon. Puberty blockers are used incredibly rarely in the UK - way below what you would expect give the proportion of people who are trans adults most of whom say their gender dysphoria began in often very early childhood. I think it's ery sad that those children at GIDS who all reports say were thriving will now have to grow up to be the trans adults they almost certainly will become and tell their stories of how internationally recognised treatment roles were not followed in their case because of an anti-trans moral panic that swept across the nation. When their voices are finally heard the conversation will change, and I hope they find a way to sue for the psychological damage that has been done to them by ripping this desperately needed treatment away from them and leaving them with almost no support.

And that doesn't mean they should be given support by the various Freudian and Jungian psychotherapists who are opportunistically circling desperate to get their hands on trans kids to try out their latest pet theories on them.

jj you know there is a phenomenon called social contagion nd you know that there is no evidence to show that pbs and hiormones re not harmful to young bodies, nd yet you persist ,. Why?

@jj1968

What we do know is that 80% of children who are 'gender questioning' if they have no intervention will settle down in their body sometime after puberty and all will be fine. Many posters on here have reported similar feelings.

What we also know is that when gender dysphoria is persistent and insistent and lasts into the first stages of puberty those children almost always go on to be trans adults. Gender clinics are well aware of this, which is why it has been the policy at GIDS to wait until puberty has actually begun before blockers might be proscribed. Around one in 200,000 young people were being proscribed blockers by GIDS annually prior to the Kiera Bell case and most of them were 15 and over. That's 161 people out of nearly 3000 referrals to the services and the vast majority of gender discordant children will never get anywhere near GIDS. The children receiving treatment were exceptional and had undergone stringent assessment over several years.

The claim that any child who is a bit gender nonconforming will be first transed by the school, who will then force them to medically trans is hyperbolic nonsense. That this is all some devious plot by a small LGBT charity (often it's claimed ultimately controlled by trans Jewish billionaires) even more so. Pure conspiracy theory on a level with Qanon. Puberty blockers are used incredibly rarely in the UK - way below what you would expect give the proportion of people who are trans adults most of whom say their gender dysphoria began in often very early childhood. I think it's ery sad that those children at GIDS who all reports say were thriving will now have to grow up to be the trans adults they almost certainly will become and tell their stories of how internationally recognised treatment roles were not followed in their case because of an anti-trans moral panic that swept across the nation. When their voices are finally heard the conversation will change, and I hope they find a way to sue for the psychological damage that has been done to them by ripping this desperately needed treatment away from them and leaving them with almost no support.

And that doesn't mean they should be given support by the various Freudian and Jungian psychotherapists who are opportunistically circling desperate to get their hands on trans kids to try out their latest pet theories on them.

You should take a look at the Dysphoric documentary which is currently on YouTube.

jj, what do you think is the difference between yourself and a male who calls themselves trans with no dysphoria and is happy with their male body and male presentation?

If sex dysphoria is no longer a medical or mental health condition why is treatment needed?

Why are we now being told and children are being taught that they can actually change sex. Not just identity as but actually become it?

By telling children that EVERYONE has a 'gender identity' and that they must choose one, instead of telling them that some people are uncomfortable in their own bodies, just creates confusion where there was non.

@peak2021

Their historically good work does not mean that they should now continue given their current policies.

This...

JJ, when you get 76 children in one school saying they are trans, and an increase of 4000% showing up to gender clinics, mainly girls, it's a perfectly normal reaction to ask why. What are they being taught?

Which is the subject of the thread, of course.

Children can't consent, themselves, to puberty blockers. The judgement didn't say they couldn't be administered. They can.

The judges had thousands upon thousands of page of testimony. This has got nothing to do with armchair psychologists!

76 children in one school, 10 girls in the same year group at a girls school in London. These are all questions which need addressing.

Especially when unqualified adult male individuals are claiming that these children might need life altering treatment, that is being 'ripped away'.