..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

[ConcernedMum100]

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

After the judgment in the Keira bell case, The TT site stated schools were no longer allowed to encourage children to believe they can change sex.

It’s interesting that anyone would think that three trans kids in my kids respective years isn’t a high amount, it’s actually more than that, I’m only even talking about the girls that my kids are actually friends with. In my older daughters friend group three of the four girls are dating they are trans. So that’s four children that I know of who are saying they are trans in one school. That I know of... there are probably more. The daughter of a couple we live near is also the trans, the daughter of my boss is also trans. Why are all these girls suddenly thinking they are boys? Who is it that is telling them they are in the wrong body? This is not the same as being lesbian or gay. You don’t need medicating and extreme surgery and amputation to have sex with who you fancy.

*saying not dating

Our's is a SW school. Please can anyone advise what we can do about this?

It is amazing to me that mothers who are expressing concern about what they are seeing with their own eyes are being told they can’t speak about it. My autistic daughter came home and said that she was getting hassled by her friends to announce her pronouns. She was told by them that “cis het people are evil”, My 8 year old dd says that her friends are putting that they are pansexual on their roblox profiles. We found someone messaging her and asking her what her sexual preferences were, was she a furry? Was she pan? Was she bi? Why are children being asked this by other children?

In whose interest is it for children to be declaring their sexual preferences? In whose interests is it that children not go through puberty? In whose interests is it that girls have to share their bathrooms? And who is shouting the loudest for all this to happen?

In plain sight.

The daughter of a couple we live near is also the trans, the daughter of my boss is also trans. Why are all these girls suddenly thinking they are boys?

This is another huge issue of ignoring sex. There has been a 4000 percent increase in girls who identify as boys. When years ago
rates of gender dysphoria was something that was predominantly made up of males.

If there was a 4000 percent rise in boys developing skin cancer or girls developing leukaemia they would want to explore why both the rates were increasing and why it was mainly affecting one particular sex.

But this, no one is looking into this explosion and the "advice" is to not only treat the children exactly the samenas eachother but also to treat the children based on the input of adults who's oath was entirely different.

It makes no sense why no one wants to explore every aspect to ensure that these trans children are given the best, most well researched and explored treatment as possible.

We get called the bigots. But we aren't the ones that are demanding that trans children do not have the same standard of safeguarding or medical research into treatment paths as all the other children

@Wandawomble

My DD’s school have done this with TWO of her classmates. Three girls out of the four she used to hang out with have now announced they are trans, the parents don’t know but the school is affirming.

This goes against the guidelines issued by the DfE last year, which clearly state that parents need to be involved. It's a safeguarding issue, and the Safe Schools Alliance have advised that it also breaks the law. Oh, and 'social transition' without the input of mental health professionals is also strongly advised against by all the psychologists in the field. Other than that, it's great.

I also think the Keira Bell judgement must have an effect. If, in later life, a child wanted to de-trans, they could argue, very plausibly, that the school put them on that pathway.

As a final note, some schools won't do this any more because the children so often change back, so they have a blanked refusal policy.

@AStudyinPink

•Unless you're implying that they all must catch it off other, or a fad?

There are very well-qualified psychiatrists saying exactly this.

absolutely, and there has been an alarming increase in girls (particularly autistic girls) identifying away from their birth sex, and many looking to take testosterone and have double mastectomies (I know one personally and she has just completed her crowdfunder for surgery - having seen the gender clinic 10 months ago and starting testosterone several months ago.

These figures started shooting up around 2015/6, just around the time that Stonewall CEO declared in an intervew that she wanted to prioritise trans issues. The BBC put out lots of positive 'transitioning' programmes and one with Polly Carmichael explaining how some kids are 'born in the wrong body' (they are not) and 'puberty blockers are a pause button with no consequences' (they are not). Interestingly, I think it was Sweden that realised they had a similar problem with girls and put out a documentary called Trans Train and that resulted in a significant drop in the number of young transitioners. They are being sold a concept.

There are thousands (maybe 10s of thousands) of crowdfunders for 'top surgery' and we need to finding out why. As a pp said - this didn't happen in our day. We had strongly held feelings and formed groups where your appearance was important to fit in but none of it led to any permanent physical changes.

What we do know is that 80% of children who are 'gender questioning' if they have no intervention will settle down in their body sometime after puberty and all will be fine. Many posters on here have reported similar feelings.

A much smaller percentage of children may find that those feelings continue into adulthood and they need to explore gender dysphoria and find a solution that suits them but that will be making a decision as an adult.

Stonewall is advocating that as soon as a child expresses gender questioning they must only be affirmed and allowed to socially transition which puts them on a path that it is very difficult to leave.

It also doesn't help the large number of children for whom a dissatisfaction in their body is driven by abuse, depression or undiagnosed neuro conditions like autism (hope I've got the terminology right).

What we do know is that 80% of children who are 'gender questioning' if they have no intervention will settle down in their body sometime after puberty and all will be fine. Many posters on here have reported similar feelings.

But this reality is anaethma to the TRA movement, as it calls the immediate reality (and all objective reality) of their subjective feelings into question. So it must be squashed. By their logic.

Somebody made a point in the comments lastnight regarding women who use communal rooms and mooch around in the buff like its their lounge.
That is what Studland Bay is for.

As an adult, I can see a funny side because I have the choice to not go in there. Plus, I understand there are people like that and it is their choice - I can walk away from it.
I'd rather you dont do it in front of me.

I was in a supermarket freezer section recently and my son saw something that I knew he would but wouldn't say anything.

As we were leaving he said " Mum, did you see that couple dry-humping against the fridges?"

I said " Oh, is that what you call it?"

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]This is the last post I'm going to make on the subject, then back to Stonewall.

This spectre of rape that cis lesbian “radfems” habitually raise, centered around the supposed inherent threat of the phallus, minimizes the appalling rates of physical and sexual violence committed against trans women, particularly trans women of color and sex workers. It also twists the picture of systemic violence to make it look like trans women are a huge, systemic threat to cis lesbians when in fact trans women as a group face incredible systemic barriers in almost every aspect of life.

I care that you don’t bother to interrogate the origins of your phallus-based distaste for trans women, and think about whether it’s actually a dislike of the organ that’s happening here or whether transphobia and a refusal to view trans women as women is involved. I care that you assume describing yourself as a lesbian tells others that you prefer what you call a pussy, as if everyone has the same definition of lesbian, woman, or pussy.

[[https://queerfeminism.com/2012/03/27/the-cotton-ceiling-is-real-and-its-time-for-all-queer-and-trans-people-to-fight-back]]/[/quote]
This is horrific. Every time I think I can't be more horrified by this movement, I read something like this, and mind completely explodes again.

You, and many others cannot even define gender, you cannot give a tangible, factual or even generic 'box-ticking' of what separates males and females beyond biology

This is the problem, anyone who doesn't pass this frankly ridiculous test in order to be able to engage in debate about the issues is dismissed and/or shouted down. The definition is meaningless in most of the points I raise in debate but it is used as a trump card by most to derail any further debate. Pointless. I've never seen anyone looking for a definition of disability or sexuality when debating the rights of those people, and yet in trans issues it is the gate you have to pass in order to have any kind of opinion. Ridiculous.

If it's not the "right" answer, people pretend you haven't answered and ask again and again and again until you accept submit to the "right answer.

Got it in one. "If you don't play by our rules, we don't want to hear what you say." Echo chamber.

minty

Opinions aside, dies the 400 percent increase, the latest GiDS service being rated inadequate, the court ruling re puberty blockers , the Tavistock whistle-blowers citing abuse ,autism and homphobia amongst amongst concerns re treatment pathways , does that not worry you about the involvement of groups pushing ahead regardless of the discoveries so far ?

Would that not concern you regardless of your opinion on us and our takes on gender?

4000

Sorry

Agree with everything you said OP.

@Flabingo this week I wrote to my DD's school asking them not to take part in the 'rainbow flag award' scheme - that's Proud Trust and Allsorts not Stonewall, but happy to share what I sent them if helpful, DM me.

I've never seen anyone looking for a definition of disability or sexuality when debating the rights of those people, and yet in trans issues it is the gate you have to pass in order to have any kind of opinion.

Cant you define "trans" or "woman" either then Mabel? How strange, when you're so very opinionated about what women on FWR think about it.

I am wondering if the increase in young people at school coming out as trans or non-binary is in part to do with a rejection of gender itself, especially by those who don't conform to what society expects of them. As feminist I relate to this impulse a lot: I see my young daughter already self-regulating some of her behaviour and interests to fit in with stereotypes.

@Wandawomble

It’s interesting that anyone would think that three trans kids in my kids respective years isn’t a high amount, it’s actually more than that, I’m only even talking about the girls that my kids are actually friends with. In my older daughters friend group three of the four girls are dating they are trans. So that’s four children that I know of who are saying they are trans in one school. That I know of... there are probably more. The daughter of a couple we live near is also the trans, the daughter of my boss is also trans. Why are all these girls suddenly thinking they are boys? Who is it that is telling them they are in the wrong body? This is not the same as being lesbian or gay. You don’t need medicating and extreme surgery and amputation to have sex with who you fancy.

I see people suggesting that the reason we didn't see such numbers when we were children, young adults, event hose of us who have been teachers is that "It wasn't acceptable for them to come out and now it is".

If THAT were true, we'd be seeing equal numbers of middle aged and older women coming out as trans NOW. We are not.

An inquiry is desperately needed into the massive increase in girls declaring themselves trans.

@MintyMabel

This is the problem, anyone who doesn't pass this frankly ridiculous test in order to be able to engage in debate about the issues is dismissed and/or shouted down.

How is being able to define gender a 'ridiculous test'? It is the lack of definition that leads to these discussions. To state gender as fact, and then build society around it without one single ability to give it a definition makes it a belief system. We can define sex without getting angry or pretending it's offensive. You get angry and defensive because you know there isn't answer to what gender is, and the answers there are to describe it are sexist and full of dangerous stereotypes. You then deflect by saying 'it's a trick question, terf mind games' as the idea of a 'bigot' (even without using the words) holds a lot more weight with a passing reader when they may be seeing the huge flaws in the gender ideology otherwise. You dismiss the question without even attempting to answer it, that doesn't make you correct that it doesn't need an answer.

The definition is meaningless in most of the points I raise in debate but it is used as a trump card by most to derail any further debate.

The definition of gender is the very opposite of meaningless. If it has no meaning, why get offended when people disagree with many aspects of gender ideology? Evidently it has meaning to some.

Pointless. I've never seen anyone looking for a definition of disability or sexuality when debating the rights of those people,

That's because there has yet to have been a need, although this thread in itself disproves the sexuality part. As Quaagars refuses to now answer, aren't male born people now identifying as lebsians and therefore changing the meaning of the label from same-sex attraction to same-gender? Even though gender attraction is already defined by pansexuality? When people start identifying as gay/disabled/black/anything else as a feeling in their head rather than a physical truth, I'm sure people will be asking for a definition of a difference at that point as well.

and yet in trans issues it is the gate you have to pass in order to have any kind of opinion

Same as those who used and use their religious beliefs should have to prove a deity before using their religion to demand laws in society. The trouble with beliefs without definition or evidence is that they are just make-believe without proof. Anyone can believe anything and demand it to be seen as truth - is that a good and fair way to run a society? Can you give examples where cultures and societies run by belief systems have been fair and democratic, with decisions in law made on factual, provable instances rather than the personal feelings and beliefs with no tangible explanation?

You get angry and defensive because you know there isn't answer to what gender is, and the answers there are to describe it are sexist and full of dangerous stereotypes.

Yes.

No one well maybe a few people do wants to sound like a flat-earther biology denialist who thinks there is literally no difference between the sexes apart from their gendered souls, just to "be kind".

@Flabingo

Our's is a SW school. Please can anyone advise what we can do about this?

Personally I would write to the school. There is a template you can use here: docs.google.com/document/d/13X242wt-TXH1CWOflbmEUM8RzNV3DeMO8W-sA9GxN0w/edit

It sounds like you'll need email 2, option 2, but may want to amend a bit...

Also copy in (or send separately to) your MP and the DoE's RSHE team - [email protected]

May as well include a link to this thread, too!

I used to be a supporter of Stonewall.

I now think they are harmful.

This is the problem, anyone who doesn't pass this frankly ridiculous test in order to be able to engage in debate about the issues is dismissed and/or shouted down. The definition is meaningless in most of the points I raise in debate but it is used as a trump card by most to derail any further debate. Pointless. I've never seen anyone looking for a definition of disability or sexuality when debating the rights of those people, and yet in trans issues it is the gate you have to pass in order to have any kind of opinion. Ridiculous.

The difference being that there are clearly defined verifiable definitions of disability and sexuality.

We have not yet been able to pin down (even with the help of trans posters on here) a reasonable explanation as to how a man feels that they become a woman. Stonewall has muddied the waters enormously by claiming that you don’t need dysphoria to be trans and that cross dressers and drag queens are included under the trans umbrella. Add to that the Scottish govt are enacting a law that specifically protects cross dressers against transphobia under hate crime laws (although no protections for women at all) so we are being asked to view cross dressers as the same class as trans people yet if we view cross dressers as the same as trans people we get accused of transphobia.

We have conversations about women’s rights, child safeguarding and biological facts (like woman=adult human female and sex is immutable) only to be told that we are being transphobic (and yes, we are told that on a regular basis, it is well documented on various sites). The word ‘woman’ is being removed from public information regarding women’s health issues on the grounds of inclusivity (and objectors are accused again of transphobia), yet the same pressure is not put on sources of men’s health information - why would that be?

So forgive us if we try and establish some definitions that make sense so we can understand where the transgressions might be.

Stonewall is leading a drive that expects young girls in schools to look at a male-bodied bearded person who claims to be a lesbian and see some of themselves in that person. They are not putting forward amazing lesbian women who may be butch or not as a way of helping girls feel happy with their sexuality. They are gaslighting girls to think that if they are attracted only to girls they should be including male bodied ‘girls’.

This is homophobic and cruel.