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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

..to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools?

999 replies

ConcernedMum100 · 04/02/2021 14:02

AIBU to think Stonewall should not be involved with schools...

Historically, Stonewall has done amazing work and led the way for equality. However, over recent years their priority seems to be a different sort of activism, which has caused many of their original supporters to abandon them.

I want to stress that I am very much in favour of primary schools teaching about diversity and different types of families including same sex parents, etc. I believe that's very important. I do however have reservations with Stonewall for various reasons, as follows:

-Its school resources with regards to transgenderism and gender identity, such as An Introduction to Supporting LGBT children, breach the Department of Education’s guidelines in many ways, including the sexist and regressive suggestion that children enjoying clothes or toys typically associated with the opposite sex is a sign they may be transgender. The resources also say that children are given a label at birth (they mean their sex is recorded) and that sometimes this label will have been wrong. They are not referring to the tiny percentage of babies born with a DSD, but children whose gender identity is supposedly different to their sex. Whatever that means. The resources also say that a school should not tell the child’s parents about their gender identity if the child does not want them to. Which means they’re suggesting schools change a child’s name and pronouns without informing the parents. Seeing as they communicate that children with gender dysphoria are often vulnerable and even suicidal, this seems very irresponsible.

-Its stance on child safeguarding. Stonewall have been very clear that they disagree with the High Court’s ruling which concluded that children under the age of 16 are highly unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers. They are in favour of medicating children as young as 10 years old, who are experiencing gender dysphoria and say they want to live as the opposite sex. This follows research showing puberty blockers do not have a positive effect on the children’s mental health, but do cause issues with brain development and bone density. Nearly 100% of children who have taken puberty blockers go on to take cross sex hormones which will likely lead to loss of sexual function and infertility. There has been an alarming increase in children identifying as trans over the last few years and the reasons for this is unknown, and there has been no research to understand the apparent strong link between autism and gender dysphoria, nor homosexuality and gender dysphoria.

-Its stance on women’s single sex spaces. Via both Tweeting and their school resources, Stonewall have made clear they believe women and girls do not have the right to single sex spaces at time when they may be vulnerable, because they believe males who identify as women (the prerequisite of which is to declare themselves a woman-no need for any medical treatment or diagnosis) should be treated as females in every aspect of life. This means access to women’s communal changing rooms, prisons, hospital wards, toilets, and rape shelters, to name a few examples.

-Its stance on women’s sports. Stonewall disagreed with World Rugby’s decision to prevent transwomen competing in women’s rugby. This decision was reached by World Rugby because they found that to include TW in the women’s teams would be unfair and unsafe (in increased risk to the women on the team by at least 20-30%) Stonewall appear to believe (and say) that inclusion comes above all else, even the safety of women and girls and their right to fair competition.

I don’t feel comfortable that an organisation with these highly controversial and political viewpoints has access to primary school children, whether it’s via face to face sessions, training school staff, or learning resources.

Of course Stonewall are not the only organisation which has these worrying beliefs. However, they are the biggest and most well funded. They are also listed on the Department of Educations “experts” page, despite breaching its own guidelines, which I think is wrong and also makes it very difficult for parents to complain to schools.

What are your thoughts?

OP posts:
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17
Wandawomble · 05/02/2021 01:46

My DD’s school have done this with TWO of her classmates. Three girls out of the four she used to hang out with have now announced they are trans, the parents don’t know but the school is affirming.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 01:49

It's not quite the same either. Saying that schoos who work with Stonewall are breaking the law is an outright lie, claiming Rowling is a transphobe is likely to be protected under fair comment.

Funny that people backed down and retracted, then? Pink News had to retract and apologise to Joanna Cherry. Didn't quite have the balls to go for "fair comment", did they?

Re Stonewall: not an outright lie, it's a reasonable interpretation based on some clear guidelines about the inappropriateness of political ideology in schools. The resource list clearly wasn't drawn up by the same people and probably predates it. You do talk some random nonsense, jj.

jj1968 · 05/02/2021 01:51

@Wandawomble no they didn't. You are thinking of a workshop of 6 people ten years ago in the US run by an entirely different organisation and which was about body shame and the difficulties some trans people have finding romantic relationships not trying to break down lesbian's boundaries.

jj1968 · 05/02/2021 01:53

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's not quite the same either. Saying that schoos who work with Stonewall are breaking the law is an outright lie, claiming Rowling is a transphobe is likely to be protected under fair comment.

Funny that people backed down and retracted, then? Pink News had to retract and apologise to Joanna Cherry. Didn't quite have the balls to go for "fair comment", did they?

Re Stonewall: not an outright lie, it's a reasonable interpretation based on some clear guidelines about the inappropriateness of political ideology in schools. The resource list clearly wasn't drawn up by the same people and probably predates it. You do talk some random nonsense, jj.

Of course it's a lie. It's not illegal for schools to work with Stonewall, that is simply a fact.
jj1968 · 05/02/2021 02:00

Even if the new guidance explicitly said SCHOOL MUST NOT WORK WITH STONEWALL in big letters on the front it still wouldn't be illegal for schools to do so because the guidance issued last September was not statutory it was advisory.

Wandawomble · 05/02/2021 02:01

Except all the three of my kids in different years have friends who are now t. How do you explain that so many are suddenly saying they are the opposite sex?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 02:07

Of course it's a lie. It's not illegal for schools to work with Stonewall, that is simply a fact.

I'm pretty sure people just said it was against guidelines. It's not actually written into law, is it? So obviously no head is going to get carted off to jail for it. It is against the guidelines. You know this because you weren't happy about it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 02:09

difficulties some trans people have finding romantic relationships not trying to break down lesbian's boundaries.

The Cotton Ceiling. Meaning women's pants.

What does the Glass Ceiling refer to, jj?

Quaagars · 05/02/2021 02:11

Except all the three of my kids in different years have friends who are now t. How do you explain that so many are suddenly saying they are the opposite sex?

Maybe because now people feel more able to come out?
Three spread over different year groups and the school isn't really a lot.
Unless you're implying that they all must catch it off other, or a fad?

Wandawomble · 05/02/2021 02:12

[quote jj1968]@Wandawomble no they didn't. You are thinking of a workshop of 6 people ten years ago in the US run by an entirely different organisation and which was about body shame and the difficulties some trans people have finding romantic relationships not trying to break down lesbian's boundaries.[/quote]
Wait didn’t the person who ran that workshop now work for them?
"Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women".

Quaagars · 05/02/2021 02:13

Three kids with friends in their respective different years that should say

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 02:15

Unless you're implying that they all must catch it off other

It's a perfectly reasonable theory that social contagion (a well known phenomenon) plays a role.

jj1968 · 05/02/2021 02:16

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Of course it's a lie. It's not illegal for schools to work with Stonewall, that is simply a fact.

I'm pretty sure people just said it was against guidelines. It's not actually written into law, is it? So obviously no head is going to get carted off to jail for it. It is against the guidelines. You know this because you weren't happy about it.

I wasn't happy about the guidance because it was clearly intended to target left wing, anti racist and feminist organisations. I couldn't care less about the being in the wrong body stuff, and I couldn't really care less about Stonewall beyond pointing out their resources don't actually break the latest guidelines - which are now under review anyway due to the fact they were very likely illegal.
Wandawomble · 05/02/2021 02:16

@Quaagars

Except all the three of my kids in different years have friends who are now t. How do you explain that so many are suddenly saying they are the opposite sex?

Maybe because now people feel more able to come out?
Three spread over different year groups and the school isn't really a lot.
Unless you're implying that they all must catch it off other, or a fad?

Except I remember these same girls dressing up in blue dresses as Elsa with the same enthusiasm. And also in their animal onesies with gusto. I don’t remember the school calling them all Elsa.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 02:19

beyond pointing out their resources don't actually break the latest guidelines

They do, in the letter of them. Careless oversight notwithstanding. Until they retract them, they are in place.

jj1968 · 05/02/2021 02:21

@Ereshkigalangcleg

difficulties some trans people have finding romantic relationships not trying to break down lesbian's boundaries.

The Cotton Ceiling. Meaning women's pants.

What does the Glass Ceiling refer to, jj?

I think it's a stupid name for a workshop. But it was a handful of people. Ten years ago. In another country. I don't think it's that relevant to this discussion.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 02:24

I'm sure you don't. Other people do.

jj1968 · 05/02/2021 02:28

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm sure you don't. Other people do.
Of course you do, it's what conspiracy theorists always do, build some grand narrative over a badly named meeting, a few selective quotes, something someone said on twitter, and a report no-one read, join the dots sheeple!
Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 02:35

No, I just think it's rather a coercive sentiment. More akin to PUA forums on Reddit. Don't blame me for the name they chose to call it, its adoption by other TRAs and the continuing evidence of this mindset among TRAs! Which I have documented here on MN, always happy to share the link. But yeah, all a conspiracy, right.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 02:36

"Cotton Ceiling" evidence thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

Datun · 05/02/2021 03:14

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm sure you don't. Other people do.
Channelling your inner Mandy Rice Davies there Eresh 🤣
MadamBatty · 05/02/2021 05:29

I have to say I have to hand it to jj1968 & Quaagars for their dedication to their cause. They put in very long hours of posting stuff. Mostly word salads & stuff & scolding the silly women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/02/2021 07:17

This is the last post I'm going to make on the subject, then back to Stonewall.

This spectre of rape that cis lesbian “radfems” habitually raise, centered around the supposed inherent threat of the phallus, minimizes the appalling rates of physical and sexual violence committed against trans women, particularly trans women of color and sex workers. It also twists the picture of systemic violence to make it look like trans women are a huge, systemic threat to cis lesbians when in fact trans women as a group face incredible systemic barriers in almost every aspect of life.

I care that you don’t bother to interrogate the origins of your phallus-based distaste for trans women, and think about whether it’s actually a dislike of the organ that’s happening here or whether transphobia and a refusal to view trans women as women is involved. I care that you assume describing yourself as a lesbian tells others that you prefer what you call a pussy, as if everyone has the same definition of lesbian, woman, or pussy.

https://queerfeminism.com/2012/03/27/the-cotton-ceiling-is-real-and-its-time-for-all-queer-and-trans-people-to-fight-back/

Snorkers · 05/02/2021 07:23

This reply has been deleted

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AStudyinPink · 05/02/2021 07:28

•Unless you're implying that they all must catch it off other, or a fad?

There are very well-qualified psychiatrists saying exactly this.

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