Is this normal. 2 kids who just don’t get on.

[j10111289]

Hi all, have two dc a boy and a girl aged 10&5. All they do is fight and argue. They literally cannot stand or sit close to each other at all without screaming at each other. They never play together! The rare occasion they do it doesn’t last long before they shout and argue. They cannot be in the back of the car together as they just pick at each other. We cannot go out anywhere without pushing, shouting and shoving each other. Who’s going first, who’s doing what! It’s driving me mad.

Aibu to think this is not normal? I know brothers and sisters fight but my two never get on. There’s never any nice bits in the day. They usually do their own thing Home schooling is hard as I cannot sit down with both of them as they end up arguing. I do some with DS whilst Dd plays and vice versa.

Both myself and dp didn’t have any siblings until we were teens so never experienced this first hand.

DS (oldest) is always saying nasty things to Dd. She can stand up for herself but she’s often told the school that her brother is horribke to her. I think it really upsets her.

Will they outgrow this?

I’m trying my best. Treat them both the same but try and have 1:1 time with both occasionally if the opportunity arises. When they are on their own they are really good but both together 😭

Advice?

DS is 20, ASD (mild), and very young for his age. DD is 10. Neither can be left in the same room for more than a minute or two without an argument. DD winds him up on purpose, DS has absolute zero tolerance. They pick at each others scabs. They have always been this way. DS thinks DD is spoilt and gets whatever she wants (she doesnt)
DD knows DS doesn't tolerate her and prods for a reaction (makes noises, pulls faces, clicks fingers, sings, hums, everything she knows annoys him)
Neither can just ignore the other and let things go. They do love each other deep down, they just can't live with each other!!

My sister and I are 11 months apart in age. In same school year.

Detested each other always. I left home at age 18 to get away. We see each other at weddings and funerals.

It was so bad I only had one child and I couldn’t stand for her to have a horrid sibling like I did.

@Sarahlou252

DS is 20, ASD (mild), and very young for his age. DD is 10. Neither can be left in the same room for more than a minute or two without an argument. DD winds him up on purpose, DS has absolute zero tolerance. They pick at each others scabs. They have always been this way. DS thinks DD is spoilt and gets whatever she wants (she doesnt) DD knows DS doesn't tolerate her and prods for a reaction (makes noises, pulls faces, clicks fingers, sings, hums, everything she knows annoys him) Neither can just ignore the other and let things go. They do love each other deep down, they just can't live with each other!!

Why do you allow your 10yo to purposely annoy your autistic son?

That would be entirely unacceptable to me.

God, this sounds so much like me & my brother! Similar age gap & very similar relationship. I never really knew it was weird until I was older and saw my friends & their relationships with their siblings.

My relationship with my brother has definitely affected me long term. I remember him being a bully, often physical, much of my life. He broke my leg when I was 9, & there were no repercussions for it. My parents have told me since that he & I were just ‘horsing around.’ This is not what it felt like to me as a small 9yo girl being attacked by a large 13yo boy. Your kids might push and shove each other as you say, but one is capable of doing much more harm than the other.

I wish my parents had worked out what the issue was & why my brother had so much anger toward me. They treated it as ‘normal child behaviour’, which it wasn’t. I didn’t feel protected by them & I never really forgave them. So that would be my advice to you- make sure your daughter knows you are trying to resolve the issue & that you’re standing up to her.

I have no relationship with my brother now. Sadly he didn’t improve with age

@Aimee1987 you sound just like me!! Sorry you had to go through all that.

You’re absolutely right that sibling rivalry and abuse are very different. & I’ve often thought the same as you about kids at school- my parents would have lost it if there was a boy at school treating me the way my brother did.

My brother was quite mean to me as a child - nasty names, ignoring me, hitting me. My parents never challenged him and he's still not that nice to me now. I wish my parents had challenged him as maybe he might have been nicer.

But he much be physically much bigger and stronger than her, so him pushing and shoving her will still hurt and is still violent because it is so one-sided. It doesn't matter if they both do it, neither should be doing it and he definitely shouldn't be doing it. He might really hurt her one day.

I have a son and daughter the same age roughly (9&4). The bicker a lot but also get on well at times. It’s usually the younger one that starts in our house. My son can wind her up but mainly it’s her thinning if she screams loud enough he will give in and do things her way.

Just tonight however I was glad I had both of them for each other. They go for a shower together and play with the water and laugh together. I know it won’t last forever as my son gets older but I feel she keeps him young too which is lovely.

I had two sisters and we fought a lot. It was painful as teenagers. But we’re best friends now.

Yes it's normal and they should grow out of it. I remember telling my two to just stay in separate rooms and not speak at all, as they just couldn't be civil. They started getting on when the youngest was in his teens and they are great friends as adults.

Your son sounds like a bully and you need to put a stop to it rather than labelling your daughter as 'Firey' for standing up to him

From what you have described I wouldn't see that as normal sibling behaviour. You need to actively discourage that kind of animosity between them. I know some siblings just don't get on however growing up I was picked on a lot by my older siblings and my parents would put it down to us just not getting on. In reality, I was an easy target. If it was someone outside the family however who was treating me the way my older siblings did my parents wouldn't have allowed it so why allow it between siblings? I have no contact with my older siblings. I have a great relationship with my younger siblings though and have done since childhood. Go figure.

Children do the attention that gets them attention, even if that attention is negative (eg a telling off). So you need to give attention to the behaviour you DO want to see. Set the bar low, the tiniest kind or slightly better than neutral action, and you praise it.
Zero tolerance on physical violence. Don't pick a really hard long consequence, pick one you can implement every single time, and not back down.

Op, what a nightmare for you and I'm sure you're doing your very best.

I think all you can do is as others have suggested and try to enforce greater kindness and tolerance between them.

Having said that, I recall all too well the tensions and sensitivity between my sibling and I. It has been very much a love/hate relationship, although thankfully the hate side didn't win!

I definitely second making sure that you're seen by them to be just, and I don't think this is the same thing as treating both the same. If one is, without your knowledge, getting away with things then the resentment that grows from the injured party can be more destructive than the hurt over the original slight.

You mentioned your son still experiences speech delay, do you think he could be lashing out and picking on sister out of frustration because he cannot communicate so well?

If so it might be worth looking at ways to help him, perhaps by engaging a professional such as a speech therapist. Of course, you might already be doing this!

If they have an abrasive relationship at the best of times, no wonder its become intolerable during this pandemic. I really feel for you (and them) dealing with such daily stress!

They may still grow up to have a ok relationship and if they can come together and have each others backs when the chips are down then I'd argue they stand a good chance.

I think you need to be realistic about expecting them to play together. At this age 5 years is a big gap and not all 10 year olds enjoy playing with younger children.

I'd also be stricter with the 10 year olds behaviour, the 5 year old may be firey but its not likely she's going to be equipped to defend herself against someone older and if she's telling people at school then it's clearly bothering her.

I think it is normal OP - not typical, but within a normal range of behaviour. Some siblings just don't get on!

Children argue, all children do, it is part of their natural development.

However I think you are putting up with far too much, I have zero tolerance for arguing in the car, as it is dangerous. The minute they start I pull over and we stand outside until they stop. It never happens now.

If there is unkindness I never let it go, they are expected to apologise and an hour/day/week of screen time is removed. It is not okay under any circumstances to physically harm anyone else, it is not acceptable in our house for anyone to hit or harm another = there are consequences. I am sorry to say I think you have been far too complacent, and should be coming down on them now. It is not okay to hit a person, any person regardless of whether you are related. Teaching them that causing harm is not okay, causing pain is not okay. Hurting someone with words is not okay. It takes time, it takes repeated and constant consequences, but I think you need to look ahead as to where this is heading when they are much bigger and stronger - putting down strong boundaries and expectations especially around your son is imperative for safety. Being weak in this area will create huge problems later on when they are teenagers op.

My two DDs with 4 year age gap never got on, fought so often I could never leave them in the same room. Had to separate them in car too, eldest in front (when old enough) and I sat in the back. They have just about grown out of it, and although not best friends will tolerate and even have a laugh together, but had to wait a long time for this to happen. They are now 16 and 20

Yes but she is five, she needs protecting before she learns to give up shoving back and tiptoe around the needs of her brother pushing her own needs down . He is about to hit puberty with no maturity so it's going to get worse. You are going to need strategies that suit his SEN.

Me and my Sister hated each other and my Mum and Dad didn’t really intervene with this. Some of my friends now have two or more kids and I notice the ones that get on have heavy involvement from the parents to do so. Things like making them hug when they’ve fallen out. Forcing the older ones to be allowed to play too when the older one has friends etc.
To me it seems a bit over bearing but it obviously results in a closer bond eventually.
However it looks like a lot of work. I’d say they were helicopter Mums. They micro manage the kids emotions and play. All done with a good heart (I think)
I’d probably be lazy like my Mum and have two kids that hated each other if I had more than one.
All worked out in the end. Started liking each other after about 30 years 😂

Sorry I meant the mums force the OLDER ones to play with the YOUNGER ones even if the older ones have friends over etc. There’s an expectation that no one can be left out. Ever!

This was me and my brother, honestly we couldn't be in the same room with each other. We'd argue and fight over the last Brussel Sprout, and neither of us like Brussel Sprouts. My Mum admitted to me years later, that she thought about getting us counselling as it was that bad. I don't think we said a civil word to each other until we were in out 20s. We get on really well now we're in our 40s

My brother was a bully and the only way I survived it is because my mum noticed what was going on and stuck up for me.

You say your daughter was feisty, that doesn’t mean she doesn’t feel it, especially if he’s older than her.

Thing is the 10 year old biy will be much stronger and have a lot more strength than a 5 year old girl. So she has no choice but try to be even louder and "fiery" and annoying to defend herself because she can feel she's much more vulnerable than him, even if she doesn't quite fully understand what she's doing. And in time this behaviour will become entrenched and it will get much worse. You need to do a lot more than making him say sorry. And you should probably try and keep them separate more anyway because a 5 year old will annoy the hell of a 10 year old.

Me and my sister fought terribly as kids/teens/young adults. We only really got on as adults, once we weren't living together (and she stopped being a spoilt brat)

Exact same age gap as my brother - he was 5 years older. We still hate each other and have nothing in common, barely have any relationship.

In my eyes he has just always hated and resented me, there was no particular ‘event’ or massive fall out. But he was horrible to me all my childhood. He pushed me down a flight of concrete stairs aged 2, trapped and broke my fingers aged 5, tried to shoot my pony with a BB gun so she spooked me off aged 8. Chased me round the house throwing kitchen knives whilst my parents were out, they didn’t believe me. Threw a garden fork at me. Always said they were ‘accidents’ and I can’t really remember how my parents dealt with it, I don’t really think they did. It writing that down made me realise how horrible he was.