Labour need a new leader

[Tellmetruth4]

www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/labour-urged-to-focus-on-flag-and-patriotism-to-win-voters-trust-leak-reveals

I would describe myself as a Blairite Labour voter who couldn’t stand Corbyn and preferred the Tories under Cameron.

I backed Starmer for the Labour leadership but am incredibly disappointed. He seems to not have any backbone or ideas of his own and seems to just flounder about waiting to do what focus groups tell him to do. He has zero political instinct.

The Tories have left a goal so open it resembles a cave and what does Starmer do? On the suggestion of his focus group he decides what’s most important is to pander to what he believes are the concerns of the ‘red wall’ voters so the plan will be to pose in front of the flag and talk about veterans and limiting immigration.

The type of voters who in this current climate, believe patriotism is still our priority as a country right now will vote Tory or UKIP, not for a party pretending to be them. The ‘red wall’ have got Brexit, it’s time for the next phase which should be focused on rebuilding the country not politicians cynically crying in suits next to the Cenotaph trying to look like super patriots.

I’m certain that what the majority of voters will want to see is a strong post Covid/Brexit plan. How do we create jobs? What type of jobs will work for the future economy? How do we rebuild the high street? What businesses should we encourage or back? What is a successful model for the NHS going forward? How do we level economic inequalities across all areas across geographic and ethnic lines as inequality was shown to have left us very vulnerable as a county to Covid Healthwise and financially? How do we make our future trading relationships work for benefit of the majority of the country regionally (and no I don’t mean destroying the South to big up the North) we could have regional centres of excellence across industries for example.

We are at rock bottom as a country, there is an opportunity to remodel ourselves post Brexit and post Covid. Focusing on creating plans that push us out of the gate strongly where the majority have an opportunity in our new future will strengthen us as a country. It has the opportunity to unite us and that will automatically increase things like patriotism.

Employing focus groups to advise on moving from one set of identity politics to another is not what Labour should be focusing on.

I can’t believe I’m saying this but as remain voting blue Labourite, I’d be tempted to vote Tory at the next election if they got a new centerist leader over Starmer who is so fake and so willing to quickly change his principles depending on what focus groups say that he can’t be trusted.

Strong plans for growth are what are needed not pandering to what a focus group told them the ‘red wall’ cared about last year. A strong economy drives everything else not blue passports. He’s so transparently cynical.

@Frodont

Thinking about Corbyn and co being in charge of the vaccine rollout gives me the chills.

This is post typical of the sort of kool aid drinking british mentality. Nothing to say, no analysis just parroting what you've been trained to think and say.

This is post typical of the sort of kool aid drinking british mentality. Nothing to say, no analysis just parroting what you've been trained to think and say

I realise it's hard for you to accept that some people might use their actual, intelligent brains to observe how a politician or party works and then extrapolate from that. But you really should try it.

@frodont But what you say means nothing, says nothing, it a totally vacuous statement evet your reply lacks any substance and evidence of intellect or observation. Its just a reactive "I don't like that man". A thoroughly pointless contribution.

[quote Inthewhiteroom95]@frodont But what you say means nothing, says nothing, it a totally vacuous statement evet your reply lacks any substance and evidence of intellect or observation. Its just a reactive "I don't like that man". A thoroughly pointless contribution.[/quote]
I don't think Labour under Jeremy corbyn would have coped as well as the Conservatives have with the vaccine rollout. The Conservatives took risks (which luckily paid off). Labour, particularly under JC, are traditionally risk averse and require consent from various factions of their party before they do anything. That is a fact and completely uncontroversial if you know anything about how politics works. But its impossible to reason with a JC fangirl.

Whatever the 2019 Labour manifesto was it certainly wasn't risk averse! It read like everyone in the party had been allowed to slot in their own little pet project!

But it's utterly pointless trying to imagine how Corbyn's Labour would have handled the pandemic, though I do feel it's uncontroversial to say that they wouldn't have been driven by the need to give handouts to his mates left right and centre every step of the way.

I also feel the vaccine success so far is in spite of, rather than because of Tory policy and strategy. It just seems it was an enormous stroke of luck for us all that Kate Bingham is a chemist, a venture capitalist AND married to a Tory MP. It seems likely the first item on the list was probably furthest from Johnson's mind when he appointed her but the combination of the first 2 made her the dream appointee and the last item in the list swung it for her in getting the role! If she hadn't existed they'd have shoved someone useless like dido Harding in and the vaccine roll-out would have gone the same way as track and trace...

Kate Bingham did a fantastic job.

I think any leader would have struggled with getting a positive media profile in the last year, with both Brexit and Coronavirus dominating the domestic news, and other news space being more than usually dominated by events in the US. With so much of the news agenda being taken up by government briefings, and media exposure of photo opportunities, the opportunities to get an alternative message out have been limited. Where Starmer has done well - PMQs for example - don't get the coverage they might have done in more normal times. Those who watch parliament probably get a very different impression of the competence of the opposition than those who watch BBC news and read the Sun for example.

I don't disagree that flags and patriotism is divisive and the wrong way to go, but our whole political discourse these days is driven by headlines and focus groups, rather than nuance or level-headed long-term thinking. Any leader right now would struggle, particularly as others have said at a moment of such uncertainty about how the next month may look, let alone 12 months. We need to reshape discussion and debate (as in, encouraging it, not shutting it down) and start valuing intelligence and experience again, rather than "oh, but he's so funny on TV", then we may stand a chance. Starmer's the right man, but at a truly shitty time.

On top of that, I know people who work for Tories and for Labour whose job it is to post on forums like this to sway the conversation and give the Mail something to print, so I always take these posts with a pinch of salt.

@Frodont

Kate Bingham did a fantastic job.

She did. Credit where it’s due.

@PotDaffodil

The weird thing about Surestart is that I didn’t use it as I could not afford children in my 20s. I am speaking of my own experience and what they did for me as a working person with no family support. What I saw was that I was working all the hours I could get to pay taxes that went to support either people on benefits or the older people with their own homes, while I was left struggling to pay the rent of the newly empowered landlords. I remember handing out concessions and signals to benefits to people on 50k plus.

Perhaps I would feel differently if such things were still around to help me, but they weren’t. Public services were already being reduced by the end of New Labour: my own services were reduced and we had to work harder with the line of progression and therefore wage increases removed. Under New Labour. The NHS staffing levels were already being reduced in the end of the New Labour years, so I went through pregnancy in distinctly worse conditions than previous generations did. Retraining options were cut back and fees introduced.

They’ve got a lot of work to do to convince people actually working that they can offer them anything but having to support everyone else while taking your own chances away.

I agree so much with this. It was my experience too.

I was in a low paid job at the time which was making me ill with stress. My job involved coming into contact with people on benefits. They were getting so much more money that I was while working so many hours.

I have never voted labour since and it would take a lot for me to do so. I’m still in a low paid job and so are most of the people I know and most people feel the same.

So @Iheartbaby under the Tories you're getting paid more, treated better AND all those undeserving people are getting less, yes?

Late back to this thread, but that sounds exactly like the Tories saying 'but Corbyn would be worse', *Summerhillsquare'. Labour are supposed to offer something better. They didn't, things got worse. We have the choice of people who we know are there to rip us off, or people who are there to rip us off but will lie to our face that they are not. Which is worse? I think those who lie as well.

I have no idea what he stands for and he really isn’t vocal enough.

Jackie Weaver for PM, anyone?

Blair is a war criminal and should be in prison. He lied with Bush and sent thousands of our men off to an illegal war. He fucking started a war based on lies!!

Corbyn ruined Labour and drove members away - actively kicking them out because they didn’t buy in to the TRA bullshit.

Starmer needs to be given a chance as he can’t be any worse than the last lot!!

@Nat6999

Compared to Boris, Keir Starmer is a brilliant leader. Watch PMQ, every week, he is hounding the Tories & picks them up on everything they do. We will only have a proper idea of how he has improved the Labour Party when we have a general election.

I think a problem for Labour is that most people dont watch PMQs. However forensic his destruction of Boris is, it won't be seen by voters. Sadly these days, it's all about personality and charisma, and that's something Keir Starmer doesn't exhibit. It's a very strange thing, but people seem to relate more to Boris than Starmer.

Andy Burnham (much as I can't bear him as he really is the epitome of self promotion) would probably do better in an election.

We need an opposition with a strong, positive vision for rebuilding after the pandemic and Brexit. One that doesn’t just prioritize economic growth for its own sake, but promotes economic activity that improves wellbeing for the masses and protects the environment.

Really frustrated with Kier Starmer and Labour. Fannying around with identity politics and patriotism when the economy is in a death spiral, people out in the real world are suffering and the climate crisis is reaching the point of no return.

@Sheleg

Labour lost my vote because they don't know what a woman is. I've gone over to the Communist Party - the only party on the left that refuses to be swayed by identity politics. They're putting up some candidates for election as MPs, and I really hope they gain traction. If covid has taught us anything, it's that capitalist governments don't give a shiny shite about the people - just profit. It's the socialist-leaning governments who have managed the pandemic most successfully.

Oh dear, there’s always one!!!

Labour should have been miles ahead at the point when vaccines were just starting to roll out. But they don't care about women, Northerners or Scotland so will be in opposition indefinitely. They are completely unelectable imo.

I don't want to vote Tory but I can't vote Labour. I should be their exact target but they've alienated with their petty focus on identity politics when the electorate want an opposition who will hold the government to account and have a plan on how we rebuild.

What does Starmer even stand for? I can't even answer that where as I know what Johnson is all about even though I disagree with his core principles. He's abandoned core Labour principles in the dust like standing up for workers rights and talking to the unions without replacing it with principles that he does believe in. I disagree with Corbyn's views too but it was always crystal clear what he was about. Starmer is being led and not a leader.

The fact that he thinks the flag is the way forward is laughable. People want jobs and an economic plan. They want the NHS properly protected and assurances that it won't be sold off. They want problems like Brexit bureaucracy sorted so we can move forward as a country. Where is that?

Marcus Rashford is much more effective opposition than the whole Labour Party and politics isn't even his day job.

Sir Keir is beaut. Have you seen him at PMQs? How he doesn't lean over and headbutt Boris I don't know.

I liked Starmer at first, but lately gone off him. The country is in the middle of a global pandemic, we've just completed brexit, so all in all a bit of a shit show and he doesn't seem to do anything positive, just criticise Boris's every move?

The governments need to pull together atm, Starmer doesn't help the UK at all.

I don't want to vote Tory but I can't vote Labour. I should be their exact target but they've alienated with their petty focus on identity politics when the electorate want an opposition who will hold the government to account and have a plan on how we rebuild.

Yes.

@marshmallowfluffy

The fact that he thinks the flag is the way forward is laughable. People want jobs and an economic plan. They want the NHS properly protected and assurances that it won't be sold off. They want problems like Brexit bureaucracy sorted so we can move forward as a country. Where is that?

Marcus Rashford is much more effective opposition than the whole Labour Party and politics isn't even his day job.

I'm really sick of people saying Marcus Rashford is a better opposition. What he has done is fantastic, as is he, but it hardly compares with the task KS has in front of him. Campaigning on one issue when you really have nothing to lose in terms of politics is relatively straightforward, which is not meant disrespectfully to MR at all. Labour have actually forced a few u-turns from the government but they aren't presented as such in the RW media, or the BBC, so it's easy to overlook.

Also, I don't see how Brexit bureaucracy is KS's problem to solve. He was opposed to the bloody thing and it needs sorting now by the wretched government who wanted it. It can't wait 4 years until electon time.

As someone who has always voted Labour I want to like Keir Starmer but I'm just not feeling it. I have no idea what he stands for or what he believes in. The only thing he has shown passion for was a second EU referendum which I disagreed with even though I voted remain. He won't stand up for women's rights and so far has shown no priniciples or integrity. I'm an old school leftie, feminist and have no idea who to vote for in the May elections, as it stands it probably won't be Labour.