Am i being insensitive or aiding and abetting?

[Charlielilu]

Content warning: abortion, birth defect, mentions still birth.

Am i being a cow? SiL had to have an abortion at 14 weeks because baby had a severe defect (not viable at all). The year since then she still talks about the baby being in the sky with her grandma and visiting my 18 month old to play. Every time my daughter points to something in the distance or looks at the sky its "oh, shes looking at her cousin!". She has made a family whatsapp group with updates she writes from the baby's perspective in heaven. She has an instagram account and a community of mums who are the same (but usually for viable baby loss or stillborn) on instagram. This sunday is a year since she lost the pregnancy and she is sad because she wanted to hold a birthday party for the baby but cant because of covid restrictions.
I honestly feel like im going mad with it all. Me and my husband arent religious and dont believe that the baby is sitting on a cloud waving at our daughter. I dont want to have a birthday party for the day she had to have an abortion, because i just think its a sad occasion. She gets angry if we dont mention the baby and always tells her parents that they shouldnt forget they have 2 grandchildren, not just 1. She gets angry and sad if we dont talk about the baby but what can we say at this point? Am i being an absolute knob? I am there for her and never say anything negative or to the contrary when she talks about the baby in the sky eating grandma's food. But I worry what the end game is here and how to explain it sensitively to my daughter when her auntie is talking to her about a 14 week old fetus playing with her.
My SiL is in therapy and seems to be doing well there, her husband sees no problem with it and even takes her staged photos for instagram (releasing a balloon to commemorate every month). Its making me uneasy now. Would love to know if I'm just being insensitive.

@saraclara

There's no wrong way to grieve.

@bitliketonyhares I'm afraid you're wrong there. Getting stuck in the grief process is very damaging, and can cause mental health problems for someone for the rest of their life. This is why grief counsellors exist.

The phrase you use is actually very damaging, and causes people not to seek help when they very much need it. And of course they can end up damaging others too, as in the example a pp mentioned of a mother ignoring her 3 live children to mourn her miscarriage 24/7.

Ops sister IS having therapy - you think telling her the way she's grieving is wrong would be helpful? Utter nonsense.

Maybe look at is from another perspective. You have your daughter. Beautiful 18 months, your parents DG. Part of your family forever. Your sister doesn't. She knew her baby was a girl. And she died. She's probably desperately trying to make her daughter part of the family because she won't ever be there to experience that. And with your DD, She wants hers to be remembered as a part of the family. Your parents do have two grandchildren, one tragically died. Imagine being your sister, and looking at you as everything she should have. Celebrating YOUR daughters milestones knowing she never will hers. She's clinging to whatever she can - and you have no empathy. Imagine her reading this. If anyone still doesn't get that, I despair.

Ops sister IS having therapy - you think telling her the way she's grieving is wrong would be helpful? Utter nonsense.

I wouldn't tell her that, no. But nor would I be encouraging her in some of her behaviour. And as people have already said on here, it's damaging to a young child to be exposed to this. Some people have even given their own experience of sustaining such damage.

Not a mental health professional as such, but I'm working with those with mental health issues and, I have undertaken both bereavement and trauma training.

She can grieve however she wants. The OP and her daughter have every right not to be involved with it.

She clearly needs some more professional help. It must be a horrible thing to go through, but her behaviour at the moment seems worrying, not to mention hugely inappropriate. To be dragging a small child into her narrative is just wrong. Hopefully she can get the help and give herself time to recover.

I've had 4 miscarriages and think this is way off. Sounds almost like performance grieving. Instagram photos for goodness sake. I would let the anniversary pass, then tell her not to involve your daughter.

I think that all of the heaven stuff isn’t appropriate to a child if you don’t believe it (I don’t personally so wouldn’t like it being said to my children)...but I it interesting that a lot of people seem to think you shouldn’t talk about pregnancy loss around children.

There is definitely a line where it goes past appropriate but my children are aware we had a late pregnancy loss before them and that other people we know have had miscarriages/stillbirths.

Like all aspects of death, we’re really open about it and consequently they don’t see death of any kind as a taboo and when someone dies or experiences a pregnancy loss they aren’t uncomfortable about it.

OP - it sounds like your sister in law is really struggling in your grief. I too would be uncomfortable with the heaven stuff as I don’t believe in it and go with a much more open ‘no one knows what happens’ explanation to my own children. It’s a really tricky situation.

I voted YABU because it sounds like she is still horribly stuck and not having conceived again must be a huge source of pain. But I don’t think it’s as simple as YABU/YANBU.
I think you have to slowly and gently disengage, on the topic. A party is hugely inappropriate, if the subject of party is raised again I’d very politely refuse. I’d also mute the story group so you’re pulling back on that, but I would get in touch with her DH and say how worried you are and is she getting the helpful she needs.

@MollieMaeve

I think that all of the heaven stuff isn’t appropriate to a child if you don’t believe it (I don’t personally so wouldn’t like it being said to my children)...but I it interesting that a lot of people seem to think you shouldn’t talk about pregnancy loss around children.

There is definitely a line where it goes past appropriate but my children are aware we had a late pregnancy loss before them and that other people we know have had miscarriages/stillbirths.

Like all aspects of death, we’re really open about it and consequently they don’t see death of any kind as a taboo and when someone dies or experiences a pregnancy loss they aren’t uncomfortable about it.

OP - it sounds like your sister in law is really struggling in your grief. I too would be uncomfortable with the heaven stuff as I don’t believe in it and go with a much more open ‘no one knows what happens’ explanation to my own children. It’s a really tricky situation.

Schools talk about heaven and hell.

I'm an atheist but I wouldn't go as far to not lot anyone talk about it round my child. An explanation that some people believe it would do.

I sympathise with her but don't think she is handling this well at all and she needs more help to move past it. It's an awful thing to have happened, and there's no time limit on grief, but in the interests of sil's emotional health it would be best if she can find a way to move on. If she's constantly talking about the baby that means she's thinking about it every day and missing out on living her own life while focusing on a loss that can't be changed. As sad as it is, it's healthier for her to stop living in what could have been. By wanting the family to also keep referring to the lost pregnancy as a second grandchild it's reinforcing the loss every time it's talked about and in the long term that's damaging to sil. Same with being on the Instagram boards. Definitely shouldn't be involving your daughter as well.

Please dont tell me i have no empathy. I will NEVER blindly encourage behaviour if there is a part of me that thinks i can help that person in a different way/theres a chance the behaviour is doing harm. She guesses her baby was a girl, the baby was too early in the pregnancy to have recognisable genitalia. She would be rightly upset if she read this, but thats what these things are for: to get different perspectives and opinio s. I have come here for opinions. Your opinion has been unhelpful.

This is such a tricky one. Having had two miscarriages at around the 11 week mark and also a termination for medical reasons at 23 weeks, there was definitely a big difference for me in how I felt after the termination compared to the miscarriages. Both were ultimately the same loss but with the tfmr there was so much more guilt and the whole process was horrific. I think unless you have been through it, it is hard to see how someone can be so focused on the idea of a baby they never really knew but for me it is a loss I still feel every day and it was more than 8 years ago now in a way that the miscarriages are not (only speaking for myself not others who have miscarried). I think the pp who mentioned supporting but putting your own boundaries in place around how things are dealt with around your daughter made a good point but please do stick with the support side of things as she really will be in so much pain - not only is it the guilt of your decision but other people's reactions to the idea of 'choosing' to end a pregnancy that complicate this issue and make it so hard to deal with. You sound like a lovely SIL to have supported as you have already!

Yes, i do intend to tell my daughter "some people believe this, some people believe that", thats a good point. I'm sure i'll find a book or something on it for her that can explain it in am appropriate way

Please just remember that whilst you've got your baby she hasn't got her baby and although I don't think it's right about bringing your baby into it she is probably seriously hurting, maybe give her some time

It sounds like maybe she's terrified of people forgetting about her lo. I know you said she releases balloons every month and wanted a birthday party but does she have anything permanent to represent her daughter? Many people would have a grave after a death - I wonder if planting a tree in her garden (if she has one) or something like that, that is more permanent, would help her?

@Charlielilu

Yes, i do intend to tell my daughter "some people believe this, some people believe that", thats a good point. I'm sure i'll find a book or something on it for her that can explain it in am appropriate way

That's all you can do op.

As someone who was pretty screwed up by the losses of a parent, do NOT let your child believe that what SIL says is truth. Do not let her believe that a deceased child is interacting with her.

I'm 36 and I'm still unpicking things in therapy.

Let SIL do what she wants, nod and smile. But absolutely do not allow your child to be involved in this.

My family felt they wanted me to be involved, aware, unsheltered. In therapy I'm discovering that I wanted to be protected and shielded by my family, which I wasn't.

It's odd how most people here (and in her real life) think it would be unkind to do anything but go along with her. In any other area of life, if someone was struggling to the point of being entirely irrational and risking her relationships, they'd gently step in.

I do realise that it's a potential minefield, but it really is in her interest for someone to intervene.
I know she's seeing a counsellor, but I wonder if that person knows what she's doing and saying within the family and on SM?

@Charlielilu

Please dont tell me i have no empathy. I will NEVER blindly encourage behaviour if there is a part of me that thinks i can help that person in a different way/theres a chance the behaviour is doing harm. She guesses her baby was a girl, the baby was too early in the pregnancy to have recognisable genitalia. She would be rightly upset if she read this, but thats what these things are for: to get different perspectives and opinio s. I have come here for opinions. Your opinion has been unhelpful.

Opinions aren't helpful or unhelpful - that's why they are opinions, and you were going to get a mixed bag with what you've written. And as you yourself said, she would rightly be upset reading this. "Nowhere near viable" was the point it was clear you are lacking empathy in the situation. You wanted different opinions - you got em.

@Charlielilu you end your post with
"I'd love to know if I'm being Insensitive".
Yes I think you are. Are the only helpful opinions those who agree with you? Don't post in AIBU if you don't want people to tell you YABU.

This is a difficult one.
What I will say is that you are viewing the loss differently than she is. For your SIL, she was pregnant with a wanted child, and that child is no longer in this world. You might see it as a lesser loss because the baby was only 14 weeks, or because it was a non-viable pregnancy, but for your SIL that was her baby. Her only baby.
I do understand your unease - and I don't necessarily know what to do for the best. It sounds like she's really struggling, and I think I'd probably try to draw boundaries around the stuff that actually impacts you (like if your daughter becomes aware and is upset - though at 18 months I think this is unlikely) - and then support her while she works through the rest.
When I had my miscarriage, my family thought it was very sad, and then within a week expected me to be fine. When I wasn't, they found it very difficult to deal with - and, honestly, their lack of validation for what I was feeling made what was a horrible and sad experience into a genuinely traumatic one. It sounds like you've all been very supportive - so I'm not saying this is the same at all as what happened with my family. I'm just saying that I know what it's like to lose a baby and have everyone act like it's not a big deal - or not as big a deal as it is to you. That's something which categorically wouldn't happen if you had a living child who died. And I'm going to find it difficult to forgive my family for not supporting me at the one time in my life when I explicitly asked them for support. So, I guess what I'm saying is, when you think something she says is batshit crazy, just ask yourself whether you would still think it was crazy if she'd had a one year old who died. People who've had a one year old and a miscarriage will tell probably tell you it's not the same - I know that how I feel about my miscarriage isn't the same as how I'd feel if something happened to my toddler. BUT if that was my first pregnancy that ended like that, then I wouldn't be making that distinction. It sounds like you've all been very supportive. Try to let the guiding factor in how you proceed be what will support her in her grief (without causing harm to anyone else).

Why does me saying the pregnancy was "nowhere near viable" mean I have no empathy? That is a scientific fact. Its a loose way of me giving the reader an idea of her and her husbands choice to abort. Using tha language lets people know they had no other choice. And I havent bashed anyone with an opinion thas opposite mine, i haven't really given any solid opinion of my own I've simply asked for advice and input. I'm not entirely sure what your point was with getting personal and then defensive. I'm after advice, not attacks. If it makes you feel that way then just don't reply.

Are they TTC? I'd imagine another pregnancy would put an end to a lot of this behaviour.

Just to make it clear, I am 100% supportive of her and I make sure I dont just push her feelings to the side or try and minimize them. I completely know (and have told her) I can never know what she's been through, I talk to her about her baby, etc. All I wanted was outside opinions on if others think her behaviour might be leading her down the wrong path and advice on how to better help her. The only examples i have are my brother and his wife's miscarriages and they dealt with it in the complete opposite way, so all of this is new to me.
But thank you so much to the majority of you for giving me some great advice. I think I might use the upcoming anniversary of the abortion to chat with her about things a bit more deeply (asuming she will want to talk about everything) and see if there's something I'm missing and if there's anything I (and her family) can do to help her.

In full disclosure, my niece died shortly after birth because her lungs didn’t develop properly, and her mum grieves like this. I don’t see it as worrying at all. Let her grieve and acknowledge that this baby, who was clearly much loved and wanted, is a part of your family history together and someone whose existence mattered. There will be enough people outside your family who will forget this baby ever was, and the way you can help your SIL to grieve is to talk about the baby. You have a beautiful 18 month old (who at this stage is hardly in any case going to be traumatised by your SIL talking about her baby). You’re lucky. Make some space in your luck for your SIL and let her grieve with you too.

@DancingQueen85

Are they TTC? I'd imagine another pregnancy would put an end to a lot of this behaviour.

Or maybe not. My niece was her parents’ eldest child. They have gone on to have two more, but they still talk about her and grieve for her because she mattered.