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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Men who falsely accuse women of rape

81 replies

xfdzfd · 29/01/2021 19:37

Hi, I am very sorry if this is not the right forum for this, but I've been interested for the last few days about men who falsely accuse women of rape. Someone I know recently told me that there is an alarming number of women who lose custody of their kids because their ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends falsely accused them of sexual violence. I cannot find any breakdown of who falsely accuses who, so I am going by the statistics that in both the USA and Britain that false rape accusations make up 2-5% of total accusations for any gender against any gender. She hasn't provided a source on men who falsely accuse women. I also remember reading from Karen Ingala Smith that men have a tendency to overestimate the violence they sustain and underestimate their contribution to the violence. Is what this person saying really true? Is there an epidemic of men falsely accusing women of sexual violence in an attempt to abuse the family court system?

By the way, I'm not an MRA. Tackling sexual violence against men is something that means a lot to me, because I was part of a student group who provided services to survivors of rape and sexual abuse in my university. Although I have not done this since graduating, I have been focused on advocating for better services for men sustaining abuse and rape, and I have donated to 1in6 before. These recent comments were very upsetting and I wanted to get a better sense of why she might have made them. Am I being unreasonable for doubting the veracity of her claims?

OP posts:
OrigamiOwl · 29/01/2021 19:54

In the UK the offence of rape has to be committed committed with a penis:
^Rape is a statutory offence in England and Wales. The offence is created by section 1[1] of the Sexual Offences Act 2003:

(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.^

Barracker · 29/01/2021 20:06

A man is only raped if he has been penetrated by another man's penis. This is the legal definition of rape in England.

A man who penetrates a woman with his penis but claims he did not consent to penetrating her has not been raped.
It's possible he has been sexually assaulted, assuming he was somehow not actively involved nor consenting to the situation in which his penis ended up inside someone else's body.

He may also have been assaulted if he did not consent to another sexual act performed upon him.

The statistic you quote needs a source as it sounds untrue.

Original poster
xfdzfd · 29/01/2021 20:22

Maybe I'm operating on a USA distinction, but the question is the same. Do we need to be concerned about men falsely accusing women of sexual violence, like we do about men falsely accusing women of domestic violence, in an attempt to take custody/mask abusive behavior?

OP posts:
Bixs · 29/01/2021 20:24

I can’t help feeling there’s an agenda here.

Hont1986 · 29/01/2021 20:30

Lol, this is clearly someone trying to reveal 'double standards'. Take it to FWR, they might take the bait over there.

Cabinfever10 · 29/01/2021 20:32

Agreed @Bixs

MorganKitten · 29/01/2021 20:50

A man who penetrates a woman with his penis but claims he did not consent to penetrating her has not been raped.

There have been female social workers who have sex with boys under 16, and female teachers who have done the same. Are you saying that isn’t rape?
Because if that happens with a 15 year old girl (even if she thinks she’s consenting) it’s rape due to her being underage.

OrigamiOwl · 29/01/2021 20:57

@MorganKitten

A man who penetrates a woman with his penis but claims he did not consent to penetrating her has not been raped.

There have been female social workers who have sex with boys under 16, and female teachers who have done the same. Are you saying that isn’t rape?
Because if that happens with a 15 year old girl (even if she thinks she’s consenting) it’s rape due to her being underage.

Due to the legal definition the victim has to be penetrated by a penis for the offence of rape to be committed. Clearly what you've written about is a very serious sexual offence, but it is by the legal definition not rape.
Cabinfever10 · 29/01/2021 20:58

@MorganKitten
In law it is classed as a serious sexual assault not rape.
Yes its just as wrong for a woman to have sex with a boy under 16 as it is for a man to have sex with a under age girl but the law classes rape as penitration with a penis, as such its a crime that only men can commit

MorganKitten · 29/01/2021 21:08

There was a case where a women sodomised a man with objects against his will (dragged and held against his will) so that would just be assault? That’s ridiculous.

OrigamiOwl · 29/01/2021 21:10

@MorganKitten

There was a case where a women sodomised a man with objects against his will (dragged and held against his will) so that would just be assault? That’s ridiculous.
No, that's is sexual assault by penetrated. There are more sexual offences than rape.
Cabinfever10 · 29/01/2021 21:11

Yes @MorganKitten just as when a woman is penitrated with an object it is also not rape.
You don't have to agree with it for it to be true

OrigamiOwl · 29/01/2021 21:12

@MorganKitten

There was a case where a women sodomised a man with objects against his will (dragged and held against his will) so that would just be assault? That’s ridiculous.
This is the legal definition of rape: ^Rape is a statutory offence in England and Wales. The offence is created by section 1[1] of the Sexual Offences Act 2003:

(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.
(3) Sections 75 and 76 apply to an offence under this section.

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life^

CandyLeBonBon · 29/01/2021 21:12

No classed as a serious sexual assault by penetration m. Certainly not 'just' assault.

Hont1986 · 29/01/2021 21:13

Everyone uses the everyday, globally understood definition of rape all the time (forced sex) right up until this topic appears, when suddenly it's very important that we all need to be using the definition under English and Welsh law only. Curious.

BornIn78 · 29/01/2021 21:16

And you thought Mumsnet, specifically the AIBU section, was the best place to find this information that you’re looking for?

Uh huh, ok Hmm.

Barracker · 29/01/2021 21:18

Do we need to be concerned about men falsely accusing women of sexual violence, like we do about men falsely accusing women of domestic violence, in an attempt to take custody/mask abusive behavior?

I've no idea. Post some stats, perhaps, and we can answer that. I'm oblivious to any trend of men accusing women of sexual abuse in order to gain custody. If this is a common thing, I'd appreciate it if you shared the information you've found.

AIMD · 29/01/2021 21:18

Of course sexual abuse, whatever form it take, against anyone is wrong.

“Someone I know recently told me that there is an alarming number of women who lose custody of their kids because their ex-husbands and ex-boyfriends falsely accused them of sexual violence.”

Having worked with children and families for a while I can’t think of any situation where I have worked with a family where the mother lost custody of her children because the father false accused her of rape. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen just that what your friend says doesn’t ring true in relation to my own personal or professional experience. Always willing to learn if this is actually a thing that is happening...but I’d need more than someone thinks it’s happening.

GeordieGreigsButtButtZoom · 29/01/2021 21:20

I believe that if you penetrate someone against their will with something that isn't a penis, it's assault by penetration. I don't think it is considered to be as bad as rape, but still considered a very serious crime. Might be wrong.

And yes, of course there's an agenda to this OP. Wish they'd just be honest about it. I might respect it a bit then.

CandyLeBonBon · 29/01/2021 21:20

Why do you want to know op?

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 29/01/2021 21:20

@Hont1986

Everyone uses the everyday, globally understood definition of rape all the time (forced sex) right up until this topic appears, when suddenly it's very important that we all need to be using the definition under English and Welsh law only. Curious.
Do they? I don't.
GeordieGreigsButtButtZoom · 29/01/2021 21:22

By "considered", I mean in terms of the law and maximum possible sentencing. I think assault by penetration carries a slightly shorter maximum sentence to reflect the fact that it can't lead to pregnancy or sexually transmitted infection (though of course any resulting injuries would be accounted for by other laws, eg ABH or GBH), but I may be wrong.

Bellofbelfastcity · 29/01/2021 21:22

As everyone else has said, that’s not the definition of rape in uk law, so you might be better to find a forum from a jurisdiction that has a definition of rape that fits your question.

HorseOfPhillipMoss · 29/01/2021 21:25

I work in this area of the criminal justice system and what you have suggested is not my professional experience

GeordieGreigsButtButtZoom · 29/01/2021 21:26

@Hont1986

Everyone uses the everyday, globally understood definition of rape all the time (forced sex) right up until this topic appears, when suddenly it's very important that we all need to be using the definition under English and Welsh law only. Curious.
Well if you're going to ask a predominantly British forum about men accusing women of rape, it is quite relevant if it's not actually possible for it to happen in law.