Snobbery

[ShrikeAttack]

So much, and all pointless.

I've just come from a thread about garden furniture. Do people really care about other's garden furniture?

Is it not just a manifestation of your own insecurity? There are many, many things I wouldn't choose, because I don't like them, for whatever reason. But to not choose them because you consider them beneath you?

How utterly dreadful. How utterly small of you to judge somebody because of their choice of garden furniture, or their sofa or plates.

Why do you care so much?

Because you use micro-signifiers to reassure yourself that you're better. That you've come far.

There's a huge amount of bollox on MN about class, it's almost an obsession.

Many of you have been sold a pup. It's not really about class, it's about confidence. There are plenty of 'working class' people who have done well for themselves, and feel very happy and confident about it.

I think after WW1, and WW2, followed by huge death taxes on estates there became a huge mass of UC folks who became the mental custodians of a life that no longer existed. And thus the 'genteel poverty' idea came to be something to aspire to.

The majority of these people actually came from 'new money" though. There are very few true 'old money' families still extant today.

Look at the National Trust houses that the 'Middle Class' like to visit. Full of guilding, marble, gold, plunder and excess.

The wannabe Middle-class seem to want to be the disenfranchised upper-class.

The new upper-class are actually the tech lords.

I guess my AIBU is, why do people think they are better just because they cling on to a mad idea of what is good, or classy, or right?

I'm from a middle class background and used to work in an office. I retrained in a technical job and must admit I definitely notice a difference in how I'm treated. I earn the best part of £50k but get spoken down to by receptionists when I attend customer sites.

@SarahBellam

I must admit, I don’t get the British National Trust/English Heritage obsession of walking round ogling the (former) homes of very very rich people. It’s all a bit ‘Let’s throw open our doors for the plebs so we can pay our bills’.

I love visiting NT and EH properties. The NT own loads of countryside and coastline as well as stately homes. They do a lot of conservation. I find historical buildings fascinating. You sound rather resentful, and need to get that chip off your shoulder.

I also enjoy NT properties. They're just aesthetically nice places to be.

Going back to the class thing, I notice that the whole MC superiority thing only really exists within that bubble. Now I work in a rather more mixed environment (office vs technical staff) I notice that the MC guys tend to wind their necks in pretty fast when in mixed groups with more 'blokey' guys like the engineers etc - in this environment they're not always the managers, more just that we have degree educated people in the office/customer facing and engineers etc in the plant, many on comparable salaries.

I also increasingly notice that there is a bit of a societal derision against MC people as much as their is praise - although maybe more with men. Like it isn't 'cool' to be from a posh background and musicians etc would rather play the working class hero role. When you watch an action film the hero is never an accountant by day, always a mechanic or construction worker or something.

'There' not 'their!

I have to avoid those threads as they tend to make me feel bad about myself. Back when I did read them children bought me a live, laugh, love photo frame with their pictures in it and my first thought was “what would the people on mn think?” Then I remembered I’m a single mum of three in a council flat earning just over the min wage and decided a photo frame would be the last thing they would comment on I’d get all the “why didn’t you have a crystal ball before you had children to make sure you could afford them?” comments that people who fall on hard times often get.

As a teenager I worked on a very dirty working farm. My boss bred beautiful horses as a hobby . We would deliver them to new owners. The seriously posh old money people would have patched jackets and dirty wellies and dogs everywhere. They would usually be very welcoming and polite. The nouveau riche types would often be very snobby and treat us like the hired help!

Never loose sight of the fact that a large number of those bragging about 100k salaries, exotic holidays, flash cars and expensive material goods are bullshitting. You know how people use Facebook as a way of painting an idealised version of their life, imagine what the same people would do I'd they were anonymous, had no photographs and folk had no way of verifying what they said. The result would be one of those 'tell me what you earn/how much savings do you have' threads.

Some people are undoubtedly bragging about income levels but I also think it is important that higher earners do share some information. Women are underrepresented in the higher income professions are it is really important for women to realise that they have as much right to go for those roles as men. That is why I am prepared to post and yes I do work in financial services and I am a lawyer.

I dislike the braggarts as much as anyone, of course £80k is a great salary and looking down on people for trivial reasons is vile. However, it is depressing that even on MN people seem more ready to believe a DH is a high earner than a woman.

@GammyLeg

As someone from outside the UK the obsession with class on MN is really fascinating.

I remember during Covid someone said that drawing on footpaths etc with chalk (as lots of children were doing) was “common”. That blew my mind.

I don't think drawing on footpaths with chalk is 'common', I can't say I've ever seen it, frankly. Is it to designate social distances or something during lockdown? I've not been out recently so wouldn't know.

Honestly I don't 'get' why people talk about what they earn - unless they have to of course or with close family when relevant. I was always taught never to discuss personal finances and never have, neither would I ask or be interested in anyone else's.

@LizFlowers it was a lockdown thing - pavement art, messages etc. And in my area, people drew obstacle courses with chalk for people exercising. A bit of fun - albeit common, according to some!

I'm used to many of the class signifiers that come up from time to time on MN as I have been on here a long time, but I have to say the garden furniture one was an eye opener. I have some of the types of furniture decried on that thread on my back porch. But here in the US we all think we're all middle class so it's perfectly a acceptable.

Strugglingtodomybest They obviously have never watched Keeping Up Appearances and so have no idea how ridiculous they sound. There are lots of Hyacinths on the garden furniture thread!

I haven't seen the other thread but I have to say, I quite like Hyacinth. Yes she's a snob but she isn't a bad person. She doesn't deny her roots, she helps her sisters and "daddy" and sees herself as a good influence and in general she is and the thing about her, is that she actually IS working class and she has working class values. The people around her, who are middle class, the neighbours, the vicar etc are the REAL snobs, they are unkind to her but behind her back, and also weak and cowardly in her presence

GammyLeg
As someone from outside the UK the obsession with class on MN is really fascinating.

It isn't an obsession. It's a daily reality we all have to deal with and it's a side we take. Its related to our history, our place. An agricultural labouring class and later, the real working class which is the industrial class. Until very recently 90% of the UK was from a labouring household, who saw themselves as the proud foot soldiers of our country and revel in it, mostly because it gets up the noses of the middle class

Being working class is not something we are ashamed of, we take pride in it. Infact the middle class often claim to be working class for credibility but they are nearly always found out as fakes

MN is VERY middle class, not representative of the UK, and you often see people claiming to be working class but they really aren't

I remember during Covid someone said that drawing on footpaths etc with chalk (as lots of children were doing) was “common”. That blew my mind

Any class could say this but the working class are particular about street cleanliness and "garden furniture" because we live in such close proximity to each other. Someone complaining about these things will more likely be working class. The middle class wouldnt notice it because untidness and crap outdoor furniture is not in their face everyday

I must admit that one of my favourite parts of being a truck driver was blocking in prats in bimmers who parked in the loading bay. They almost always got shirty and I'd cooly say "sorry mate, you'll have to wait now. I'll only be 10-15 mins."

If somebody seemed suitably apologetic I'd normally move the wagon and let them out if the warehouse guys hadn't already started offloading me. But of course Mr BMW was rarely apologetic so he had to wait.

@littlepattilou

Completely agree.

The hideous 'how much do you earn' and 'how much do you have in savings' type threads do my head in, as they bring out the most hideous braggarts and blowhards. Many are exaggerating and telling tall tales, but they are still cringeworthy to read.

I read one thread last year where the OP asked how much people have in their pension. A bunch of posters came in with £450,000 so far, and then £500,000 so far, and then every braggy post after that trumped the last. Until one poster said they had £1.5 million in it. If any of it WAS true, I bet they don't have all that money now, as many private pensions have tanked with the covid pandemic.

Going back to what you said @ShrikeAttack one thread that reeks of snobbery and the faux middle-classes looking down their nose at people, is the 'AIBU to think NO-ONE has dinner before 6pm?'

Didn't take long before the snobs came along with their 'only the working classes have dinner before 6pm! Middle classes like me have it at around 7.30pm.' And 'only the lower classes' say 'tea' for the evening meal.

Also, these obtuse, small-minded, faux-middle classes, don't stop for a minute to think that people work different and varying hours these days, and some work from home, so some working classes may eat their evening meal at 8pm, and some middle classes at 5.15pm.

Those kind of threads bring out the worst people on mumsnet.

My fwiw view is it would serve people right if they get hacked for divulging all their personal data on a thread bragging about how much they possess, where they live, what's in their pension, where they buy their garden furniture, etc.

It's a trend on here to collect all that sensitive information in one or multiple threads, and fertile ground for some dodgy hacker to scrape off here to build a picture.

People's brag-fest will be their undoing. But they're utterly clueless and arrogant that "naaah, it'll never happen to me!" Famous last words!

I agree, a while ago there was a thread about taste and what people classed as tacky. I was going on to write about fleecy blankets with large wolf heads on or garish colours. When I read the thread, many of the things named tacky and poor taste were what I had, crushed velvet furniture, grey walls, large TVs, rattan garden furniture. I actually thought my home was tastefully decorated until I read that thread, now I think I must be tacky!

I earn a very good salary so would be considered 'new money' but clearly money doesn't but taste.

I love how class indicators are just dropped into a thread for no reason. Especially the false I don’t really understand what you mean .... are people so needy for others to recognise to a bunch of strangers online that class status well yes apparently many are (it’s often very amusing) we of course would know in real life

The endless why not get a cleaner, it’s all relative you can still struggle to get by in London’s on 100k, the ear piercing so common, the names threads, the second homes and so on

It’s played out on MN but the UK class system is very entrenched in our society (often denied on here mainly by those who will certainly let you know what class they are from in doing so and it’s not working class)

I agree gentrification it’s social cleansing London has become full of areas of middle class villages full of gift shops and organic cafes and parks that we now have to pay to park in with expensive cafes selling organic snacks (£4 for a cheese sandwich)

If somebody asks me how much I earn I'll probably ask them how much they bench.

@DuaneAgain

I'm from a middle class background and used to work in an office. I retrained in a technical job and must admit I definitely notice a difference in how I'm treated. I earn the best part of £50k but get spoken down to by receptionists when I attend customer sites.

It’s ok, @DuaneAgain, I think we get it. You’re ‘ripped at 40’, and not a chino-wearing, ‘pasty-faced office blob’, so receptionists shouldn’t look down on you for presenting as WC, they should of course be hissing ‘Diet Coke break’ every time you and your pecs heave into view.

The Lidl thread is full of Waitress shoppers looking down their noses.

@Flaxmeadow I know it's your daily reality but my point is that it's endlessly picked over on MN. There are so many threads about it: what names are "chavvy", what word you use for the meal you eat at night. I just don't get the endless need to sift through these cultural minutiae?

"Any class could say this but the working class are particular about street cleanliness and "garden furniture" because we live in such close proximity to each other. Someone complaining about these things will more likely be working class. The middle class wouldnt notice it because untidness and crap outdoor furniture is not in their face everyday"

I really don't think you can generalise there. But your theory made my working class (and chalk artist) DH laugh!

I see a lot of snobbery on here but also lots of reverse snobbery too. I guess I notice it both ways cos I’m not really sure where I fit into it all, not that I like the whole idea of sorting people into different classes.
Both husband and I are from working class families, and mine were particularly hard up. I remember how it feels to be constantly hungry cos there isn’t enough food in the house.
However, we both went to university and I did a post grad too. I do not work in a related field and am actually self employed, not earning much. However, my husband is one of those mythical MN creatures who earn a six figure salary. He is a partner at the GP surgery he works at. He is busier than normal at the moment due to COVID but normally works 3 x12 hour shifts a week and gets 10 weeks annual leave per year so life-work balance is pretty good. But you would never know he is a high earner from his clothes etc. We live in a small 2 bed house cos that’s all we need and don’t go on expensive holidays, only occasional meals out etc as we prefer a quiet life. The only indicator is my husband’s moderately expensive, second hand car which he loves, but then we know people who have more expensive cars who earn a lot less and got it on finance etc so I don’t think that’s an accurate sign. Not everyone who is wealthy is a snob, or flashes their money around. My husband loves his job and the money brings us both peace of mind in knowing we can easily pay the bills and there is always food in the cupboard. Oh and we have rattan furniture like that mentioned in the other post, and our fruit bowl is in the lounge (no idea what that says about us).

Meant to add, that growing up I saw more Everest snobbery and judgement of people who are different to you, than I ever saw in later life of people looking down their noses at others. Where I was people were always judged to be snobs or stuck up because they dared to buy something nice, or go on a modest holiday that wasn’t to the local caravan park. I was constantly criticised for wanting an education or trying to talk ‘proper’. People didn’t like you ‘getting above your station’ in life. I know true snobbery exists but I very rarely see it in people close to me. I surround myself with kind people from all walks of life and don’t know anyone who criticises others for their choice in clothes, furniture, house etc. Not saying it is true of all people but in my personal experience the most judged people I’ve met have been the really poor working class. I guess it comes out of insecurity and unhappiness in their own lives but I do think if you are truly happy then you just live your own life and don’t worry much about what other people are doing

Sorry, that should say the ‘most judgemental people’, not ‘most judged’

@EssexLioness

I see a lot of snobbery on here but also lots of reverse snobbery too. I guess I notice it both ways cos I’m not really sure where I fit into it all, not that I like the whole idea of sorting people into different classes. Both husband and I are from working class families, and mine were particularly hard up. I remember how it feels to be constantly hungry cos there isn’t enough food in the house. However, we both went to university and I did a post grad too. I do not work in a related field and am actually self employed, not earning much. However, my husband is one of those mythical MN creatures who earn a six figure salary. He is a partner at the GP surgery he works at. He is busier than normal at the moment due to COVID but normally works 3 x12 hour shifts a week and gets 10 weeks annual leave per year so life-work balance is pretty good. But you would never know he is a high earner from his clothes etc. We live in a small 2 bed house cos that’s all we need and don’t go on expensive holidays, only occasional meals out etc as we prefer a quiet life. The only indicator is my husband’s moderately expensive, second hand car which he loves, but then we know people who have more expensive cars who earn a lot less and got it on finance etc so I don’t think that’s an accurate sign. Not everyone who is wealthy is a snob, or flashes their money around. My husband loves his job and the money brings us both peace of mind in knowing we can easily pay the bills and there is always food in the cupboard. Oh and we have rattan furniture like that mentioned in the other post, and our fruit bowl is in the lounge (no idea what that says about us).

Gosh I agree. Just live your life and keep confounding the snobs! Despite the fruit bowl in your lounge!

I grew up in a small town riddled with snobbery. My dad was 'trade' and did rather well. Mum stubbornly Respectable WC. I desperately wanted to play with the girls who had ponies and dancing lessons but we just didn't fit among the lawyers and doctors . And actually Mum didn't help in her weird stuck-upedness about her position. Oh a tangled web of petty snobbery and insecurity!