Snobbery

[ShrikeAttack]

So much, and all pointless.

I've just come from a thread about garden furniture. Do people really care about other's garden furniture?

Is it not just a manifestation of your own insecurity? There are many, many things I wouldn't choose, because I don't like them, for whatever reason. But to not choose them because you consider them beneath you?

How utterly dreadful. How utterly small of you to judge somebody because of their choice of garden furniture, or their sofa or plates.

Why do you care so much?

Because you use micro-signifiers to reassure yourself that you're better. That you've come far.

There's a huge amount of bollox on MN about class, it's almost an obsession.

Many of you have been sold a pup. It's not really about class, it's about confidence. There are plenty of 'working class' people who have done well for themselves, and feel very happy and confident about it.

I think after WW1, and WW2, followed by huge death taxes on estates there became a huge mass of UC folks who became the mental custodians of a life that no longer existed. And thus the 'genteel poverty' idea came to be something to aspire to.

The majority of these people actually came from 'new money" though. There are very few true 'old money' families still extant today.

Look at the National Trust houses that the 'Middle Class' like to visit. Full of guilding, marble, gold, plunder and excess.

The wannabe Middle-class seem to want to be the disenfranchised upper-class.

The new upper-class are actually the tech lords.

I guess my AIBU is, why do people think they are better just because they cling on to a mad idea of what is good, or classy, or right?

@ShrikeAttack

I think that's an insecurity on their part *@Ginfordinner*.

I don't even believe it. I know people across the spectrum.

From people that went to Winchester, Eton, Cheltenham Ladies, and Ampleforth and Bedales to decent Grammars and excellent state schools, and rubbish state schools.

I know people from everywhere. I move in all kinds of circles. And they all exist.

I'm always amazed that people can't see beyond a very small circle.

And I'm always amazed that people judge so hard. The majority of people I know aren't terrible. They aren't dreadful. They're just people that live in very small circles.

And feel annoyance. Because they're not that bright.

But not you, you’re much more worldly as you move in such varied circles. And you’re bright.

Sorry, but you’re as guilty (if not more) as those you’ve started this thread to deride!

I once had a boss who went to Benenden, but she wasn't on £100k.

[quote iklboo]@Clicketyclick21 - it makes you bloody great [/quote]
not so bad yourself!

I’m a snob about hot tubs to be fair

I don’t think thr garden furniture thread is about snobbery op. I think it’s about envy.

I'm thinking it's about maturity. We all know people who have more than us and people who have less than us. Hopefully most of us don't choose our friends by the brand of their paint on their walls. Or their garden furniture.

I know people who have never had a mortgage living in Highgate in posh north London, kids went to private schools and are now doctors and lawyers. The man in the marriage was an only child who had rich parents but he has worked very hard all his life with a successful and admirable career. She is an art teacher - they are both thoughtful, liberal and kind. Very good friends. I love them.

I also have friends who pay their rent, have charity shop furniture, they are single parents and sometimes struggle to pay the big bills. Who can't always afford a holiday but have hard working and impressive kids. I love them too.

As it happens I sit somewhere in between. Single parent home owner. When my marriage broke down I knew my priorities - earn a good living and protect and nurture my kids. I also knew it won't matter how my house looks, what car I drive it clothes I wear - I was just trying to give my kids a good, secure and happy life.

I love all these people. Why? Because of who they are - intelligent, kind, clever, energetic, creative, fun, interested and interesting. No one judgey, mean or bitchy. I'd happily spend time with any of them - I don't give a shit what their house is like. And they don't care about my worn out home. Who gives a fuck?

And honestly I know my life is super privileged, I do not live in a deprived area, i don't worry about paying my bills most if the time. I work in the charity sector and I know how unequal our society is.

You know, my tombstone ain't gonna say how nice my house or hair was. But my funeral might say how big my heart was. Either way I won't be there to see it. Dust to dust. All that remains is who and how we loved. And that will die out too when our descendants go. We have to know what's important.

@Bluntness100

I don’t think thr garden furniture thread is about snobbery op. I think it’s about envy.

Two sides of the same coin.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the place that obsesses over class signifiers also obsesses over "bringing down" people who, for example, struggle with working in a supermarket after spending years in a senior role in aviation. And both with a strong sense of moralistic self-righteousness.

Off topic, but should fruit not be kept in the fruit fridge?

Quite right. And served by the fruit footman.

As the Duke of Devonshire said when asked if he could get by with just one pastry chef so the other could join the army during World War II, "Damn it! Isn't a man allowed a biscuit?"

@Clicketyclick21

My bil is a right snob except he was brought up on a rough council estate. Went to uni, did well career wise & married a mc girl. He couldn't get rid of his accent fast enough, changed his social life to match his in laws. You'd think that he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth with his plummy accent. He is such a mc cliche now with a pony and private education for the kids. Plus he's a bellemd and a snob.

Do you blame him for wanting to out behind him his past that might have been hard? I Are you not also being a snob for judging him - who are to you say what he's doing is not allowed?

People care what others do too much, full stop.

Finally saw the outdoor furniture one. One post from OP, assigning morals including "keeping up with the Joneses smug", which doesn't even make sense but does efficiently combine two of MN's favourite supposed putdowns.

Looks like a wind-em-up-and-watch-em-go job, but you can't say it hasn't worked!

Someone I know likes to buy more expensive items as they last longer. She does have a point ( to be fair) but she is sniffy that others can't afford the initial outlay of a German white good or a well made sofa or garden furniture or whatever it is.
She's lucky she can afford the price of these things.
Class is such a big thing in the UK and I've been snubbed for being working class before or the fact my dh didn't earn six figures. It's their problem not mine.

It's when people try overly hard to be snobbish, but get everything wrong, and end up coming across as the sort of person they are trying to be snobbish about... It is very funny.

The best people are those who are comfortable with what they have and who they are, no matter how rich or poor. Snobs are generally always a bit cringeworthy, whether they're titled aristocrats living in a castle, or more "aspirational".

@the80sweregreat

Someone I know likes to buy more expensive items as they last longer. She does have a point ( to be fair) but she is sniffy that others can't afford the initial outlay of a German white good or a well made sofa or garden furniture or whatever it is. She's lucky she can afford the price of these things. Class is such a big thing in the UK and I've been snubbed for being working class before or the fact my dh didn't earn six figures. It's their problem not mine.

Next time she does it, introduce her to the Vimes Boots theory:

*The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.*

DH and I are so different, I wouldn’t say either of us are snobs though. I had M/UC upbringing, nannies followed by boarding school. We were never dirty as children but my parents definitely believe in buying to last.
DH family is WC, never had any money (and still don’t), they buy new pans, bedding, cushions etc every year which is a total alien concept to me who inherited my granny’s pans.
DBIL is the biggest snob I have ever met, I take after my parents (but probably not as extreme) most of our stuff was inherited or gifts so a bit mismatched. DBIL just looks down on us every time visits.
DH just puts up with my quirks, although he wasn’t pleased about the sofa arm covers - if you take care of things they last longer!

I'd just like to clarify my 'I hate the middle-class' statement. I'm about as middle-class as you get, (many, many generations of MC and UMC folks), and the middle-class en masse, when they colonise an area are the worst. The sharp-elbowed gentrification and pushing out of locals is an absolute horror.

Individually, I know many delightful middle-class people but when they reach critical-mass in a formerly 'undiscovered' area, bad things happen.

I have nothing at all against the middle-class, I'm talking about snobbery though, which can be a problem in a middle-class enclave.

@MessAllOver

Hmm, we live in a cul-de-sac. Feeling insecure now. Would it be better to refer to it as a "close" or a "no-through road" in conversation?

Close, I think. "Do join us at the Close next Friday for dinner, darling" has a nice Hyacinth Bucket ring to it.

that's a dead end where i come from. never heard of cul-de-sac until i was grown up. and i think i was well into my 20s when it occurred to me that an address with close in it was probably a dead end. actually there is one near here that is not, never has been, is a through road for vehicles too. maybe that's why i didn't know...

OP, i know what you mean about gentrification.
i hate how an area is taken over, eg Archway becomes Highgate slopes, or everywhere is a village suddenly, like Walthamstow.
and then all the ordinary useful shops get pushed out, so there is no where one can get a one pound mug of tea and a fried egg on toast, which can be vital for ordinary working people esp outdoor workers who need a loo, and for the aged, and lonely who may never talk to anyone else in the day.
these places become chi-chi wine bars, or cereal bars in east london, serving american coco pops for £5 a bowl.
it's akin to ethnic cleansing.
and all the antiques shops appear, picture framers, art galleries, places where little tabitha and tristram can decorate ceramics for just £50 a session. organic food shops.
and other such everyday essential needs.

I agree. Who gives a f**k about what others own, individual taste (or even if they keep goats as long as they look after them well)?

We should mind our own business and get on with our own lives. At the end of the day, none of that matters as long as people behave decently to each other.

It's all swings and roundabouts. I have a decent salary but still plenty of spare time as my job's not one which I have to take home - when I finish I don't give it a second's thought.

Most of my high earning mates are always a bit stressed and none are in particularly good physical shape. Even the ones that do train can't do it like they did in their 20s due to general lack of time and energy.

I'm not a particularly judgemental type but I must admit I do feel a bit of smugness in the summer when I'm the only one who's still ripped at 40. I wouldn't change places with a pasty blob who earned £15k more than me, and tbh so many middle class office workers I know are weak looking.

I'm amazed by the posters who only know people who have the same type of (well paid) professional jobs, all university educated, don't know anyone who rents etc. Very rare to find anyone like that where I live (thank goodness!).

Sounds boring as hell to me.

@eaglejulesk

I'm amazed by the posters who only know people who have the same type of (well paid) professional jobs, all university educated, don't know anyone who rents etc. Very rare to find anyone like that where I live (thank goodness!).

Sounds boring as hell to me.

I believe it to probably be relatively truthful.

Since I moved from office to technical work the majority of new friends I've made in the past few years are non-office types.

I've also realised how much your career tends to affect the type of person you become. Most of the middle class office worker dads I know turn into chino wearing individuals who dress like Paddington Bear and wear suits to the pub.

Garden furniture? In this house that equates to a couple of deck chairs and an umbrella.

My mum and Dads neighbour has amazing garden furniture. They take their settee into the garden!

I must admit, I don’t get the British National Trust/English Heritage obsession of walking round ogling the (former) homes of very very rich people. It’s all a bit ‘Let’s throw open our doors for the plebs so we can pay our bills’.

As someone from outside the UK the obsession with class on MN is really fascinating.

I remember during Covid someone said that drawing on footpaths etc with chalk (as lots of children were doing) was “common”. That blew my mind.