Snobbery

[ShrikeAttack]

So much, and all pointless.

I've just come from a thread about garden furniture. Do people really care about other's garden furniture?

Is it not just a manifestation of your own insecurity? There are many, many things I wouldn't choose, because I don't like them, for whatever reason. But to not choose them because you consider them beneath you?

How utterly dreadful. How utterly small of you to judge somebody because of their choice of garden furniture, or their sofa or plates.

Why do you care so much?

Because you use micro-signifiers to reassure yourself that you're better. That you've come far.

There's a huge amount of bollox on MN about class, it's almost an obsession.

Many of you have been sold a pup. It's not really about class, it's about confidence. There are plenty of 'working class' people who have done well for themselves, and feel very happy and confident about it.

I think after WW1, and WW2, followed by huge death taxes on estates there became a huge mass of UC folks who became the mental custodians of a life that no longer existed. And thus the 'genteel poverty' idea came to be something to aspire to.

The majority of these people actually came from 'new money" though. There are very few true 'old money' families still extant today.

Look at the National Trust houses that the 'Middle Class' like to visit. Full of guilding, marble, gold, plunder and excess.

The wannabe Middle-class seem to want to be the disenfranchised upper-class.

The new upper-class are actually the tech lords.

I guess my AIBU is, why do people think they are better just because they cling on to a mad idea of what is good, or classy, or right?

@Ginandplatonic

There’s an awful lot of unpleasant judging on here for a thread ostensibly criticising others for judging. Or is it ok to judge and ridicule others for being middle class?

It depends on what you mean by judging.

There’s a difference between judging someone purely because they are middle class, and judging them because they act a bit ‘Hyacinth Bucket’.

There have been a few of the former, but mostly I tend to find it’s the latter

What, have I socially cleansed my WC neighbourhood by living here as a MC person? My house was previously let out and my neighbours mostly rent too so maybe I should have let another landlord buy it to preserve the local character of new tenants every 6-12 months. Much less damaging to the community than my veg box deliveries

I'm not posting my salary, savings or pension pot. I like to think I have some class (ha) and I just thought it was stupid to post this detail. If everyone on mumsnet earns a six figure salary does that mean all mums do? Tis meaningless.

[quote hotpotlover]@Ginfordinner

I don't count my managers as my friends either ( far from it) and I don't think I have a single friend who is on a six figure salary, even though some of them are skilled professionals.

I have no problem however believing that some people that earn 100 k or over are on mumsnet (or have husbands on a high salary) [/quote]
Oh, I have no problem believing that other people are very high earners. I have a problem with people not believing that I have no personal friends on 6 figures. That's all.

@Meredithgrey1

I'm as lower class as they come and even I look down on people who fill their garden with artificial grass.

But that’s not a class thing, is it? I don’t like artificial grass due to environmental/wildlife factors, not because I’m an incredible snob who thinks artificial grass is a “common” thing to have.

And I think garden sofa sets are just a bit impractical in the UK climate, and using them for year round entertaining with patio heaters is a bad for the environment and an inefficient use of energy. I don't think that is a class/snobbery thing either.

I think I just read the thread on garden furniture. What a laugh. People just can't hold back on opinions about things they don't like so they feel better about themselves. Sad really.

@unmarkedbythat have you heard the difference between punching down and punching up
@LouiseBelchersBunnyEars depends what you mean by judging

I’ve not read the garden furniture thread but I gather it’s people judging others because they perceive themselves to be socioeconomically superior? Whereas this thread is people judging others because they perceive themselves to be morally/ethically/philosophically superior. 🤷🏼‍♀️

We all judge other people, based on all sorts of things, all the time. Based on all sorts of criteria. Normally we do that judging in the privacy of our own head and do t say it out loud. An anonymous Internet forum allows people to put it out there. And it isn’t always pretty.

So your fruit bowl being in which room makes you which 'class"? My guess is: WC = 'lounge'. MC = kitchen? UC =: 'what fruit bowl' - we have an orchard?

I do judge people but by whether they are kind not by their fruit bowl btw!

Hmmmm...are we talking a wooden, glass or ceramic fruit bowl (thrown, fired & glazed at home of course)

@52andblue

So your fruit bowl being in which room makes you which 'class"? My guess is: WC = 'lounge'. MC = kitchen? UC =: 'what fruit bowl' - we have an orchard?

Superb timing. There's now a thread about whether the word "lounge" is common.

@BadLad - of course!
but whether I eat my apple sitting on my sofa in the sitting room or on the settee in the lounge the Qu is, does that make me more common than eating it from the fruit bowl kept in the kitchen? Or indeed popping out to my orchard? the whole Qu of what the bowl is made of is a good one too - wood (my parents WC bowl was wood and in the lounge). Pottery - Emma Bridgewater? Hand thrown by kids at a pottery barn? Hand thrown by a pottery artist from a gallery? Family Silver? Or just a paper bag kept in the fridge? Smeg?
Is the apple Fair Trade? Is it organic? Is it local?

Clearly just judging people on whether they are kind is not enough to keep up with the Jones' must try harder...

Superb timing. There's now a thread about whether the word "lounge" is common

Why are so many mumsnetters so obsessed with class? I really don't get it. No-one I know in real life is. The friends I have come from all over the place so any differences we might notice would be regional rather class based.

Like a PP I judge people on how kind and considerate they are, not whether they are a postman or a company director.

@Ginfordinner

Superb timing. There's now a thread about whether the word "lounge" is common

Why are so many mumsnetters so obsessed with class? I really don't get it. No-one I know in real life is. The friends I have come from all over the place so any differences we might notice would be regional rather class based.

Like a PP I judge people on how kind and considerate they are, not whether they are a postman or a company director.

Genuinely, I think the difference is only that people vocalise their class judgements because they’re anonymous on here — I’ve lived all over the world, and while social class of course is far from unique to the UK, I don’t think I’ve lived anywhere where it’s quite so entrenched, to the point where people unconsciously log people and thinks etc in class terms.

And I think garden sofa sets are just a bit impractical in the UK climate

That’s a reason for you not to get one yourself.

It’s of no consequence to anyone else or their choices.

Exactly. If you - for example - have a decent outside space, entertain a lot, spend time outside as a family, etc, etc, comfortable outside seating is just a basic requirement.

I’m not in the UK, and they’re standard issue here.

I'm just popping in to reiterate my original point, which is, 'why do you even care?'.

The fact that it's still rumbling on about what people call the room their large seating equipment lives in is absolutely indicative of my OP.

Sofa, settee, lounge, living room, sitting room. Who cares?

Lots of people, apparently.

It's nonsense and nonsense that people use to skew themselves as superior.

I don't posit myself as a superior being, I'm human, and I judge, but I judge the fucking judgers and get really pissed off.

But then I think, maybe it's not their fault. Maybe they were just brought up in a judgemental framework. It's very hard to break out from conditioning, and then I start to think that maybe I'm a twat too, because I'm using tools that maybe other people don't have, and I too am a product of my environment.

And round we go.

Wonder if the poster who couldn’t possibly be a snob because she inherited granny’s baking trays did the classic tinkly laugh after that line.

Bloody garden furniture. I've got one of those rattan sofa things with massive seat cushions that have to be stored in my garage over the winter and hastily brought in the house if it rains in summer. Bloody waste of money even if it does look better than my sofa in my living room.

Your right OP. Its on MN alot. You shouldn't say this, its wrong to own that, that colour is passe, using that perfectly normal word is uncouth. Its ironic that the person making these judgements just seems ridiculous to think they have some authority over whats acceptable and what is not.

I avoid certain threads because its just so pointless reading other peoples made up rules to make themselves feel superior. Unfortunately the the sofa, settee, couch, living room, drawing room, moring room, toilet, loo, bathroom thread slipped through. What a load of nonsense!

Like a few other posters, I don’t think it helps to assume people are lying about salaries. There are too many people stuck in low paid work because they don’t have access to advice about careers. I’ve posted about salaries before and not lied. I’m not sure why anyone could be bothered to make stuff up.

Hitting the 100k mark won’t happen for everyone but there are lots of opportunities for graduates to get to £50k plus even in the public sector if they get on a grad scheme.

@OnYourWayOut I will say on your point it's possibly down to time, I know a lot of couples/families like you describe. Bit difficult to dress your child up like their going to a beauty paegent every morning when you work full time, have probably been working all evening and have to be on a 7:00am train to the other side of the country the next morning.

*they're going to

Honestly makes me a bit sad that women who are holding down great jobs in competitive industries, working full time (no flaming way I'd want to do it, but I admire people who do) and trying to raise a family are seen as deliberately aspiring to scruffy children, they're not they just spend the little time they have wisely. Which isn't putting bows and ribbons in their child's hair for daycare!

Snobbery makes us feel better, like there are rules for life, and if you abide by them you can wear that like a badge of honour. I remember growing up, my parents had some of these - ITV being somewhat uncouth and only BBC being acceptable, don't even start on sky - the horror. I look back on this arbitrary judgement with amusement! My favourite threads on here are the cleaning ones, not exactly snobbery but closely linked - if you're not bleaching your eye balls 3 times a day you're unclean and a lazy slattern.
I'm not posh in the slightest, but when I've met 'the gentry' I can think of most embodying the opposite of 'snobbery', pristine manners and charm (no matter what they're really thinking) and a large amount of 'i don't give a fuck' - dogs everywhere, holes in clothes, an innate knowing of when to wear the family pearls and rock an up-do and how to tackle a lobster. I'm envious of that! The small snobberies over yankee candles and garden furniture feel quaint, amusing and very of their time in comparison. I quite like them.