Snobbery

[ShrikeAttack]

So much, and all pointless.

I've just come from a thread about garden furniture. Do people really care about other's garden furniture?

Is it not just a manifestation of your own insecurity? There are many, many things I wouldn't choose, because I don't like them, for whatever reason. But to not choose them because you consider them beneath you?

How utterly dreadful. How utterly small of you to judge somebody because of their choice of garden furniture, or their sofa or plates.

Why do you care so much?

Because you use micro-signifiers to reassure yourself that you're better. That you've come far.

There's a huge amount of bollox on MN about class, it's almost an obsession.

Many of you have been sold a pup. It's not really about class, it's about confidence. There are plenty of 'working class' people who have done well for themselves, and feel very happy and confident about it.

I think after WW1, and WW2, followed by huge death taxes on estates there became a huge mass of UC folks who became the mental custodians of a life that no longer existed. And thus the 'genteel poverty' idea came to be something to aspire to.

The majority of these people actually came from 'new money" though. There are very few true 'old money' families still extant today.

Look at the National Trust houses that the 'Middle Class' like to visit. Full of guilding, marble, gold, plunder and excess.

The wannabe Middle-class seem to want to be the disenfranchised upper-class.

The new upper-class are actually the tech lords.

I guess my AIBU is, why do people think they are better just because they cling on to a mad idea of what is good, or classy, or right?

[quote sunshineandshowers21]@PeanutButtaCups i’m the same. i had my son very young, live on a council estate, and my family are as working class as they come. i take everything people say on here with a giant pinch of salt! some people use mumsnet as their own little fantasy world where they’re the lady of the manor coming to dole out advice to the peasants.[/quote]
I’ve had to start taking things on here with a pinch of salt too. Lots of people on here live in a fantasy world, either that, or somehow every high earner is a mumsnetter as that’s the only way to explain the amount of people with big salaries!

How utterly dreadful. How utterly small of you to judge somebody because of their choice of garden furniture, or their sofa or plates

We all judge each other, including your precious working class and upper class. What is "Full of gilding, marble, gold, plunder and excess" if not judgement of a way of life YOU don't approve of?

And actually the middle classes would hate all that gilded marble stuff in their homes, even if it were the real McCoy - buying stuff that's too posh for your class is a working class nouveau riche trait (remember the posed photo of the Trump family?)

And actually the middle classes would hate all that gilded marble stuff in their homes, even if it were the real McCoy - buying stuff that's too posh for your class is a working class nouveau riche trait (remember the posed photo of the Trump family?)

Or maybe some people like buying "nice" things? What's your solution barring working class people from John Lewis?

People are tribal and want to associate with either the tribe they are in, or the tribe composed of people they want to be associated with. Most not all of us on here are female, and have produced or may produce a child. Granted not all, but i expect the others are in general sympathy with one of the initial precepts. We have Black mumsnetters, MGBGT mumsnetters etc. Likewise outside docial media we have groups we associate with, national, political cultural etc. There is our group and the other group. When we lived in caves, the other group nay be a threat so that is why one group tend to resent the possible perceived threat.

The worst judgement I’ve experienced is from the aspirational middle class. They seem to have a very narrow set of criteria for what is acceptable home decor, make of car etc.
But I don’t know any aspirational upper class so I’ve not seen the faux vagrant look.

There is a theory that each class copies the one above it so fashions move down through the classes.

I have just seen the other thread. It's bonkers. Our garden is too small for a garden furniture set. We just have a wooden bench and wrought iron table that the previous owner left behind 17 years ago. I am the only one in our house who likes eating outside so it isn't worth replacing them.

The class obsession on here, usually veiled thinly as moral superiority, is what drives me to take breaks from time to time. I don't understand where it comes from. I've never seen it among groups of women in real life.

@BadLad

A few years ago there was a thread with a title along the lines of "What trivial things do you judge people for?". Page after page of people adamant that they never judged anyone for house decoration, house size, job, loo brush, cutlery, meal times etc. After all, life was too short.

That thread vied for top spot on the active threads list with another thread, about which room people keep their fruit bowls in. The fruit bowl thread quickly descended into a bitter argument about class.

I remember the fruit bowl/class marker argument. It was one of the most deranged things I've ever seen.

There is a theory that each class copies the one above it so fashions move down through the classes.

Not strictly true especially for fashion. Streetwear, hip hop culture etc

I'm always amazed that people can't see beyond a very small circle.

It's because they are boring and anything new is to be wary of. They are all clones really. They can't see past what they know and can't understand. It's very limiting intellectually.

Just take a look at houses for sale. Majority are all grey clones of each other, the exact same stuff in each house basically. All to be keeping up with the joneses.

I don't believe half the crap I see on here. It's bullshit. If anyone actually tries to say they work a 9-5 job only and earn 100k plus, they are lying. No job at that level means you work a short number of hours, you are essentially on call permanently. Your contract says 9-5, you don't work that. I know people at that level, they work many more hours on top of that, including weekends. Plus it's amazing how many of these people also spend all day on mumsnet. Yes I so believe you.

@CakeRequired my DH earns 100k and works 9-5.30 Monday to Friday. He’s a director at an economic consultancy. My BIL is a director of a hedge fund. He earns €130k and works late during his busy season (Jan-April) but works 9-6 otherwise. Neither work on weekends. My SIL is a director at one of the big 4 accounts that firms. She earns 120k and works every hour under the sun.

I find it odd that just because you aren’t aware of something you decide it doesn’t exist and is bullshit. Maybe trying to make yourself feel better than if someone earns 100k plus they have etc to have sold their soul to the devil and work all hours.

Here it is again.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3196131-Is-it-common-to-have-the-fruit-bowl-on-the-dining-table

@littlepattilou

I loved that meal thread, hilarious that anyone thinks the time you eat has any impact on your class! Many of us an enigma - income, job, upbringing, interests a complete mismatch. I say tea because that's what exh said (20 years of marriage means you adopt each other's ways) but that's a regional thing - that new class structure thing that came out a few years ago puts us well and truly in the elite category. (And I covet an outdoor sofa plus dp really fancies a hot tub despite having gone to boarding school etc.)

Yes, pinch of salt.

My eyes were opened some years ago when a poster claimed she lived next door to “someone” and they were like this/that did this/that. I knew it was utter crap (it wasn’t me...).

Plus the worst snobs are those who have “risen” up the ladder and are afraid of sliding down a snake. I did judge mil who had to have everything brand spanking new from John Lewis and would have died rather than bought second hand. I once made the mistake of getting her a first edition of a book she said she liked. I heard her hiss to fil, “Why has Irma got me a charity shop book?”

"I will conclude though - we all judge. Every last one of us. And for some things we downright know are ridiculous. Anyone who says they pass though life without judging anyone or anything is lying through their teeth. The thing is, most judging is silent, within one’s own head. Mumsnet has just enabled us to vocalise thoughts probably best kept to ourselves."

• completely agree with this

There so many different nuances of snobbery that it's hard to categorise them. I'm particularly averse to people boasting, including stealth boasting, about money.

I think the OP is right about it being a lack of confidence thing. It's often a lack of education thing too.

But Britain is way more snobbish than other countries. I wonder if it's because in history it's had a lot of different peoples move in at one stage or another, and not being from that tribe or new people meant you were looked down upon by the new overlords. Or whatever.

And accent snobbery! I have what is a typical private school, generic Scottish accent, but for some reason I've encountered people with heavy regional accents trying to look down on me and fake superiority because it's not an English accent! It really is a thing, and it's hilarious!

Then there's sports snobbery. If you get injured and don't compete for a while in your sport, certain people will just stop talking to you. It's always those at the middle level who do this, and who are the most boastful. Those at elite/national team/Olympic level are invariable not boastful or too snobby to speak to anyone.

[quote ShrikeAttack]@OnYourWayOut, I hate the middle-classes so much I can't have much to with them. I lived in a town that is the apogee if MC, it was embarrassing for everyone that lived there. For shame.[/quote]
Although I agree with your OP about snobbishness in general, I think post is horrible. To say you hate the middle classes so much you can't have anything to do with them is just bizarre. The MC aren't some homogeneous group who all act or react in the same way. I know people from all classes (although even the differentiation of people into "classes" in this day and age irritates me as I think it entrenches such thinking) who are so different, to write off any such group of people based on preconceptions of how you think they would act in a specific situation is equally small minded.

In terms of the amusing snobby things on MN, I was on a thread the other day about DIY and people seemed to be falling over themselves to say how much they hated en suites. It was quite weird (I don't mind them personally, but I don't feel strongly enough to look down my nose at people who love them).

I also, unashamedly, would love a hot tub AND my DD got her ears pierced at age 7 (after 3 years of nagging).

[quote FitzsimmonsMarvel]@CakeRequired my DH earns 100k and works 9-5.30 Monday to Friday. He’s a director at an economic consultancy. My BIL is a director of a hedge fund. He earns €130k and works late during his busy season (Jan-April) but works 9-6 otherwise. Neither work on weekends. My SIL is a director at one of the big 4 accounts that firms. She earns 120k and works every hour under the sun.

I find it odd that just because you aren’t aware of something you decide it doesn’t exist and is bullshit. Maybe trying to make yourself feel better than if someone earns 100k plus they have etc to have sold their soul to the devil and work all hours.[/quote]
Why would I believe you though? Its not exactly difficult to lie on a forum. Did I tell you I'm an astronaut? See how easy that was? I don't know you, your husband, your bil or sil. I do know my friend, I know their job and what they earn from it, and how hard they work. You could easily be lying just to contradict me. It's still not going to change what I think.

I don't know anyone in real life who talks about class.

Saying you hate anyone who is middle class is just nasty though.

I think in some there's an underlying simmering resentment of how the other half live, or should live according to that individual. Some people genuinely cannot perceive living differently to them, so constantly self sooth and preen by pushing back against 'the others'. The pandemic illustrated this beautifully based on the hundreds of threads regarding how we 'should behave'.

There was a thread the other day from someone asking if they should move house. They didn't necessarily WANT or NEED to move, just felt they should. Iirc they were due to receive a pay increase and an inheritance, and felt that friends/ peers had a better/larger/desirable postcode home, and wondered if they should move (mainly) because of expectation both from others and themselves. There was nothing wrong with their home, it sounded like it just needed a bit of TLC to make it workable for the family.

It's sad so many give so much head space is given to how we will be perceived from people who mean nothing to our own happiness.

• It's sad so many give so much head space to how we will be perceived from people who mean nothing to our own happiness.

Edit fail

@Fckingfuming

* It's sad so many give so much head space to how we will be perceived from people who mean nothing to our own happiness.

Edit fail

My mum was like this. She based so many of her actions on what she thought everyone else was thinking. What a waste of effort because how can you know what they are thinking?

It was things like ironing everything, kids being clean at all times. Because “what would other people think?”

Who gives a shit. Relax, be yourself and enjoy what you have / do.

Off topic, but should fruit not be kept in the fruit fridge? I don't want to eat warm apples.

My uncle owned a restaurant so he ate his main evening meal when my cousins came home from school. So they had their tea around 4/4:30 because my uncle needed to go to work at 5:30 pm. They would then have supper before bedtime and my uncle would eat again at with his staff around 9pm.
Some people would have a fit if they knew about his dinner arrangements.

The class obsession on here, usually veiled thinly as moral superiority, is what drives me to take breaks from time to time. I don't understand where it comes from. I've never seen it among groups of women in real life.

Completely agree!
I hate how judgemental some MNers can be, why do they have to unnecessarily bring class in to so many things?

I remember a thread about dog breeds, describing some dogs as too ‘common’

If you don’t like something that’s fine, but I find it pretty hurtful when people have to then say bs like it’s common/tacky/nouveau rich to do or have ‘x’