AIBU to think women should not be banned from Social media for asking the question

[Angryresister]

Many women have been suspended from sm for asking the question:
“Do you believe that male sexed people should be allowed access to changing rooms and showers for female sexed people and teenagers?”
Seems like a perfectly reasonable question which we should be allowed to ask

@wildraisins
How would you word a policy for a female space that would objectively allow transwomen in but not men? Specifically?

I am at a loss as to how someone can ascertain who is male and who is female unless it is purely down to that person's own statement. And if you think it is all down to that person's own statement, do you think it is possible to lie about it?

I'm not asking if it's likely or probable - is it possible for someone to claim to be trans when they aren't if it is the act of claiming to be trans that makes someone trans?

[quote wildraisins]@Whatsnewpussyhat
Gender reassignment actually is a protected characteristic. For the very reason of all the intolerange and close-mindedness we are seeing on this thread.[/quote]
So you've finally read the Equality Act properly. I've no idea what intolerange means. But you are the true epitome of a closed mind. You've repeatedly demanded statistics about women and girls being attacked by transwomen. If the attack took place anywhere other than a changing room, you've demanded that posters supply you with specific examples of assaults in changing rooms.
How many women and girls do you want to be assaulted before you believe that there are unscrupulous predatory men who will take advantage of self identification.

@wildraisins

And where is your counter data on women? The rate they're assaulted sexually, physically? The numbers in which they are murdered? Suffer domestic violence?

The whole point of finding figures to prove that the trans community is suffering in greater numbers (impossible to begin with considering there are billions of women in the world and every single of of us have suffered sexual assault at some point in our lives). Again you lack the ability for a balanced argument in favour of just throwing out facts that somewhat back up your view. That's not critical thinking.

Women's rights are not a niche concern to be moved out of general view

Yeah, we only make up 52% of the population.

In this particular case, trans women are more vulnerable

So adult males are more vulnerable than women and girls? Really.
Actual despise the word vulnerable used in this way.

99% of humans trafficked on this planet are female. Raped and beaten multiple times a day. All so men can have a hole to stick their dick in and act out sick fantasies because they view these women and children as objects. Less than human.

Female's across the planet have their bodies controlled on the basis of being able to get pregnant. Punished for it, even by death, or used as incubators.

Only females are child brides to disgusting old men. Bought and sold like cattle.

Only females are denied education in order to keep them subservient.

Female babies are murdered just for being born female because males are viewed as superior.

These females can't opt out of their oppression by claiming a male 'gender indenity' so fogive me for not giving a flying fuck about privileged mostly heterosexual white men whining about not being allowed in female spaces.

All this women who have been gaslighted into thinking adult males are somehow the most vulnerable and marginalised people in fucking history.

Do you know who are vulnerable?
The young lesbians being told if they are same sex attracted they must actually be straight men. Told their bodies are wrong because they dont fit a sexist stereotypes or want to have sex with a penis. Or girls growing up in this sick porn soaked culture where sexual violence against women is the new fucking normal being sold as liberating. 'Sex work' is just work like any other (funny how this doesn't apply to men though eh) Kids being used as collateral damage by males pushing their sex rights agenda.

Women's rights cannot co exist with trans women's right without removing our right to be a our own sex class exclusive of males.
Allowing males in female only spaces removes a female's right to safety, dignity and privacy away from males. You are removing our consent and our boundaries.

"According to the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey:

Nearly half (46%) of respondents were verbally harassed in the past year because of being transgender.

Nearly one in ten (9%) respondents were physically attacked in the past year because of being transgender.

Nearly half (47%) of respondents were sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime and one in ten (10%) were sexually assaulted in the past year. In communities of color, these numbers are higher: 53% of Black respondents were sexually assaulted in their lifetime and 13% were sexually assaulted in the last year.

72% of respondents who have done sex work, 65% of respondents who have experienced homelessness, and 61% of respondents with disabilities reported being sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

More than half (54%) experienced some form of intimate partner violence, including acts involving coercive control and physical harm."

Many groups suffer violence, unemployment and homelessness. The answer is not to be found in the ladies' loo. The answer is to look clearly at the causes. No answers will be found by pretending that people can change sex.

and by the way the complete and utter lack of understanding of basic safeguarding principles shown by women here is actually quite alarming.

@JellySlice

I think if a biologically male XY person has undergone gender transition surgery and/or has begun hormone treatment and knows in their heart of hearts they are a female, then of course they should use female toilets!

"You can join our club - if you have unnecessary surgeries performed on you and take unnecessary medications that will have lifelong effects on you. Us? Oh, we don't have to do it - but you do."

Yuck. Absolutely unacceptable way to treat anybody.

I don't think anyones forcing you to take medication or have surgery. stay as nature intended if you want but then use bathroom and changing rooms accordingly.

So adult males are more vulnerable than women and girls? Really.

Actually, I think that for various reasons adult males are at more risk of violence than women and girls. They won't all fit in the ladies' loo.

Sexual assault is illegal. Men who want to assault women could just enter the changing rooms if they wanted

Yes, if they were so intent. But them knowing that they're neither welcome nor permitted, does act as a deterrent. If I see a male in a female space, I can challenge it and (hopefully) he will move away. If he's permitted to be there, I have no protection whatsoever.

Lesbian women could assault women in the changing rooms if they wanted (and it wasn't so long ago that there was a moral panic about it)

Of course she could but I've got a decent chance of holding my own against a lesbian woman. What chance do I have against a male?

I find it appalling that in order to ask the question, women are having to defend their perception that biological men can be and often are dangerous to women and girls. It seems to me that we won’t start getting clarity on trans until it is accepted again that biological males are a threat. Then and only then can we start pointing out that male-female trans are biologically male. There are too many vested interests trying to obscure these very simple facts.

The statistics are clear and so are the experiences of women and girls throughout history.

@MichaelMumsnet glad to see this back in the forum it was raised. It is an important question and mothers should be allowed to see it easily and discuss it. Thanks for listening to those who made this point.

@SeasonFinale

I think people should be banned from posting their anti trans stuff on the general pages of MN such as AIBU.

This!

Male answer to every problem - shut the women up! Stop them talking!

Is there any evidence that a trans man or woman is any more likely to be a predator on the vulnerable than anybody else. It's like a witch hunt

Again, you are missing the point. The point is we have sex segregated spaces to protect women from men because we know nearly all sex offences against women are committed by men. . If you want to change this the onus is on you to present the evidence that any man who self-identifies as a woman poses the same risk of committing as sex offence as a female woman, rather than a man. (though actually once people who look male can enter these spaces, any man can enter freely whether or not they identify as s woman).

@PegasusReturns

Has anyone explained what living as a woman means?

On the one hand I do occasionally wear skirts/dress. I more regularly wear jeans and trainers.

I wear make up. But not in lock down.

I’m the main earner and in the past my DH has been a SAHP. And so have I.

It’s so confusing!

Non Binary...

@mygrandchildrenrock

Wow, what insight. What transphobia are your seeing here, on a discussion about women's sex based rights?

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

nanbread I'm sorry, but the "most vulnerable to being harmed" is propaganda.

Fewer than one transperson a year is murdered in the UK. Each one is a tragedy, but, statistically, they are safer than the general population. More transpeople have been jailed for murder than have been murdered.

Meanwhile - an average of 2.5 women a week are murdered by men in the UK.

Where is our hashtag? Where is our march? Where is the concern that week in, week out, women are being murdered?

Can you IMAGINE what would happen if 2.5 trans people were being killed every single week?

We don't even report the deaths of these women. Not unless their murder was particularly gruesome, there was a salacious element or they were particularly pretty by Western standards.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

That is why single sex spaces exist. It's not a trans issue - it's because male people harm female people.

You can't change sex. So, male people, no matter what their gender identity is, should not be able to come into single sex spaces. It is up to them to find a workable solution, it's not my fucking problem. I've got enough problems what with trying not to be murdered.

This.

Incidentally, all the TWs I know are horrified by this debate, they KNOW they are not actually women because they know it's impossible to change sex. They know this because they have had years of counselling before they were able to be dx with dysphoria, before they got hormones and before they got surgery. YOU might call them truscum, many TRAs and handmaids do.

This is why it's really important that the steps to a GRC remain the same. Those guys (whom I, irl, call women and use female pronouns for) understand reality and know that they are only being harmed by this ridiculous TRA attitude.

Lots of males are in danger from other males . Don't you think.males should sort it out instead of palming it all.off in women?

One of the reasons we protect women in society through single sex space is not just to protect against general assault. It is the particular type of assault. Many women can get pregnant. The consequence of pregnancy lasts a lifetime and if a baby is born, then trauma continues into the next generation. It is BECAUSE women have women's bodies that they need single sex space. All other arguments (and there are many) aside. In terms of the vulnerability argument this trumps all for me.

@MichaelMumsnet thank you for moving this thread back to AIBU (for the traffic). Can we have the poll back too?

@coldsunnydays

Is there any evidence that a trans man or woman is any more likely to be a predator on the vulnerable than anybody else. It's like a witch hunt

Again, you are missing the point. The point is we have sex segregated spaces to protect women from men because we know nearly all sex offences against women are committed by men. . If you want to change this the onus is on you to present the evidence that any man who self-identifies as a woman poses the same risk of committing as sex offence as a female woman, rather than a man. (though actually once people who look male can enter these spaces, any man can enter freely whether or not they identify as s woman).

Women would still be at a greater disadvantage, even if anyone could prove that 'any man who self-identifies as a woman poses the same risk of committing a sex offence as a female woman, rather than a man' (hint: thay can't prove it), because as a previous poster pointed out, it's easier to fight off a female than a male.

I'm not arguing with what you said, coldsunnydays, just pointing out that women are even worse off & in need of the protection afforded by single-sex spaces.

I have never read so much bollocks on one thread.

Complete lack of empathy with women who don’t want to be around male bodies when they are undressed and vulnerable.
Complete failure to understand anything at all about safeguarding.
Complete lack of understanding of the Equality Act, particularly the single sex exemptions.
Complete unwillingness to understand crime statistics because they don’t agree with their argument.

Women are fully human, not just your mummies, not there to fix every fucking problem men have. Keep the fuck out of our spaces; that’s what decent men do. They don’t need a law to tell them to do that, they just do it because they don’t feel a need to abuse women’s boundaries and use them for validation.

Humans cannot change sex.

@wildraisins

Those statistics don't compare though. Different sources for one, never mind issues like many women don't report their sexual assault and rape. Though amazing how you can bend 2 seconds of Googling to a belief that women are less vulnerable in this world than trans people. This is treating into flat-earther type belief system.

Though again, typical tra language - you're not being 'attacked', people are asking you questions you cant or refuse to answer. And stop calling women 'cis'.

@wildraisins

For the very reason of all the intolerange and close-mindedness we are seeing on this thread

I find people from your side of the debate do resort name calling when they can't counter the facts and evidence presented to them,.
I find it quite telling.