Who would even know 400 people willing to break LD law?

[TheQueef]

Just saw it on the news.
Any of you could muster 400 people to break the law?
I could maybe get 20 out of everyone I've ever known, how do you even ask?
It was a school to boot! No teaching but come to school for a secret bash!

So...
YANBU no I couldn't gather a big group of rule breakers.
YABU I could easily get that many, everyone is at it.

They also have tremendous stamina, as they are used to studying from 7 am to 7 pm
Ah, the benefits of religious devotion are that it makes you more disciplined, it IS good for something!
Very interesting that it lines up with coding and thank you for the link 🙏

No coding for the girls though:(
Oh no it wouldn't do to let them shine in case they outshine the men🤬

Not Jewish but another big party
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55778930

I'm beginning to think the organisers should be put in prison as the owner of the property in the above article had been fined previously. Obviously didn't make a difference

Put them in prison you say?
We won't have room for all the young people that are desperate to party!

I don't blame the government for this either. They have reached out to communicate with religious and cultural leaders from various different groups

For once, neither do I; they really can do only so much, especially when communities are resistant to any intervention

This is one among several groups who, as a PP said, hold religious belief above all else, and in the case of some of the leadership above the law. Therefore whatever action's taken, even if any is possible, is never going to be easy - which may explain why "the other 390" may not be penalised, and why the security guard (almost certainly a member of the community himself) insisted that the number was actually "only" 150

Can we throw Dominic Cummings in prison too

There shall be a few made an example of

It change people’s ways culture trumps society norms It’s far better to come from within that punish from outside

Religious fundamentalists ... what is that good for?

Not a great deal in my own view, but I accept that not everyone feels the same

In the uk at least, most are forced to work eventually as the bills don't add up

I'm just wondering if this offers the possibility of change being effected via benefit arrangements? I'm aware that community difficulties have already arisen because of this, and of course further deprivation would be a concern, but could it be made to work do you think?

And BTW can I thank you for your many excellent posts on the thread ... I'm learning a lot here

@Puzzledandpissedoff I am not actually sure. Being made to work may just mean they work in haredi businesses which would not make them less insular. Or the women get really stressed and work longer hours so their husbands can stay as full time learners. I used to frequent imamother (an orthodox jewish forum); it is more US focused but the women there are very stressed about money (mainly due to paying the kids' school fees) and hardly any are stay at home mothers, despite having upwards of 4 children. Their lives are very difficult - 4 + children, commuting, full on job, housework, entertaining people on shabbat, volunteering. You can cut their benefits but my gut feeling is that all the burden would fall to the woman to keep the family going. The man would just have his cushy life learning at yeshiva. Even orthodox jews like my MIL are critical of such men; in my MIL's words, the woman works so hard in a full time job with lots of kids and housework while the man 'pretends to learn' cos lets face it, how many of them are torah genius scholars?

The child benefit cap has hit them hard (in Israel, they don't have that problem as you can get ten payments if you have 10 children).

There’s no way that the organisers would be sent to prison. There’s a huge backlog of criminal cases. The chance of the CPS deciding that bringing the organisers to court is in the public interest is pretty much nil.

Apart from anything else, prosecuting would turn them from wary of the authorities to downright hostile.

@Ch3rish

community which is fairly closed and many members of which live almost entirely apart from the mainstream, accessing no secular news or media, spending time only with other members of the community, living a life centred around religion...

Well it appears they knew enough to cover up the windows or is that a usual practice at Jewish weddings?

They're not saying that the community is full of people who don't know about the restrictions. They're saying that for some people, the rules of the community override rules like lockdown restrictions.

I could imagine a similar sized gathering going ahead, for example, among members of a political group who are opposed to lockdown and/or strongly believe Coronavirus to be a hoax (or exaggerated).

It's not the same as organising a party for your mates, it's part of a community with likeminded views.

You can cut their benefits but my gut feeling is that all the burden would fall to the woman to keep the family going. The man would just have his cushy life learning at yeshiva

I don't doubt it for an instant, but just wonder if it might offer the chance of these women pushing for community change?

Or would it just end with more disadvantaged women? I don't know either of course, and am just thinking out loud ...

I’m disgusted with all this stuff atm! After it becoming extremely close to home this week

[quote Yohoheaveho]@onlychildandhamster
@SebastianTheCrab
it's hard not to conclude that the Israeli government benefits from the division and resentment caused by its preferential treatment of the religious ones?[/quote]

N, it doesn't benefit at all. Politics in Israel is extremely complicated (not helped by a system of proportional representation) with, in addition to the typical left and right parties, Orthodox religious MPs who are quite influential. I think they've had an election every year for the last 4 years because they can't get their shit together.

And there are Arab/Muslim MPs in the Israeli parliament too btw, in case that's where you were going with that comment.

@Yohoheaveho

No coding for the girls though:( Oh no it wouldn't do to let them shine in case they outshine the men🤬

Wrong again.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-ultra-orthodox-women-flock-to-high-tech/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/effort-to-catapult-girls-into-high-tech-creates-ripples-in-haredi-world/

www.torahinmotion.org/discussions-and-blogs/the-law-of-the-land-bava-kamma-113
Dina demalchuta dina, the law of the land is the law, is one of the most famous, far-reaching and even revolutionary laws of the Talmud. At its most basic level it requires Jews to be law-abiding citizens of whatever country they find themselves in.

Does this not apply to all religions that one has to obey the laws of the land?

As said above the women are usually the main earners as the men study all day so it is not fair to suggest the women in that community don't work - quite the contrary.

I am against all mandatory cv19 legislation and the sooner we remove these restrictions on people's religious and other freedoms the better.

@CruCru

prosecuting would turn them from wary of the authorities to downright hostile

What's the problem with them turning hostile? They are going to be in prison anyway.

Or is society going to be frightened of people who break the law?

@Xenia

As said above the women are usually the main earners as the men study all day so it is not fair to suggest the women in that community don't work - quite the contrary.

I am against all mandatory cv19 legislation and the sooner we remove these restrictions on people's religious and other freedoms the better.

Why?

@onlychildandhamster

They use the benefits to supplement their earnings to provide for their huge families of 7- 12 children

I don't want to focus on this community in particular.

But it's important to remember that 'benefits' come from somebody else's pockets Why should someone have to pay tax to support somebody who wants to have 12 children in order to repopulate a community?

Claiming benefits should really be a last resort, not taken for granted (by any community or person) as a lifestyle choice (to enable multiple children, devoting life to religion, or any other purpose)

How does our benefits system compare to that in other European countries?

I live v near there. Jewish families typically have at least 6 children so family groups & events are huge.

What worries me about this is that a large group from a community attended and therefore must share a very similar mindset about covid and restrictions.

And if those communities also are anti vax etc. Which again is huge numbers who will be in close contact.

Because then those groups will risk this carrying on longer because even when we get numbers low they'll be the ones taking it back out into the general population.

And I also agree I cannot imagine knowing so many people willing to break the lockdown although I could easily get 400 people to party through family, ds sports club and work etc.

Actually - I cannot even imagine trying atm. Which is why I (maybe unfairly and wrongly) believe the community don't believe in covid, don't believe the figures or believe illness is just a risk you take.

Claiming benefits should really be a last resort, not taken for granted (by any community or person) as a lifestyle choice (to enable multiple children, devoting life to religion, or any other purpose)

Fully agree in principle, where lifestyle choices are the driver - also that this applies no matter what the community concerned

[quote trulydelicious]@CruCru

prosecuting would turn them from wary of the authorities to downright hostile

What's the problem with them turning hostile? They are going to be in prison anyway.

Or is society going to be frightened of people who break the law?[/quote]
I should think that the organisers will be related in some way to everyone at the wedding (and to many people in the community who weren’t). Sending people’s relatives to prison isn’t going to foster good relations with the police. I think there are thousands of ultra Orthodox Jews in Stamford Hill. Having a large community which is terrified of the police is bad for society - it happens in traveller communities and used to happen in Brixton (possibly still does).

There’s no way to prosecute three or four organisers “on the quiet”. Anti Semitism is a real problem in the UK and something like this will lead to Jews (most of whom are not having weddings and had Passover over zoom) getting abused by nutters.

In any case, criminal cases are quite seriously backed up. This wouldn’t get to the court, especially if pretty much no one in the community would testify.