Who would even know 400 people willing to break LD law?

[TheQueef]

Just saw it on the news.
Any of you could muster 400 people to break the law?
I could maybe get 20 out of everyone I've ever known, how do you even ask?
It was a school to boot! No teaching but come to school for a secret bash!

So...
YANBU no I couldn't gather a big group of rule breakers.
YABU I could easily get that many, everyone is at it.

You obviously don’t live in North London....different rules apparently...

Once upon a time I lived in a flat in Stamford Hill, near an illegal venue very like this. I saw close up how a sect can live with the benefits of a western democracy but completely ignore all rules and regulations.
Planning, parking, schooling, entertainment licenses, health and safety, safeguarding. The lot. I was personally threatened when I complained to the council about being kept awake for months on end by an illegal venue used for religious celebrations. No one wanted to know. All advice was, sorry love best you move.

I was horrified by the treatment of young girls and women that I saw. I am so crystal clear that as a country we should protect the rights of vulnerable individuals over the right to religious freedom.

@Belleende

www.thejc.com/lifestyle/features/i-want-to-be-the-voice-of-the-orthodox-1.506974

Orthodox Jews (the modern orthodox ) mainly recognize the problems and want to help them. I feel like these are the best people to reach out as non Jews and reform Jews would just get rejects outright for being goyim. Observant orthodox Jews who are integrated into British society like the lady in the article show them how it is possible to be frum (religious) and fully integrated.

So, I am from northern Ireland, I have seen the benefits that talking can bring, there is no better way to solve a problem.

I have been at community events where moderate Jews were disregarded every bit as much, and actually probably even more so than shiskas like me by the extreme orthodox communities in Stamford hill. They deliberately set themselves apart, as totally other.

I still believe that dialogue is the only way to build understanding and progress, but it should never come at the expense of the human rights we value as a country. In 12 months of living there, I saw human rights violations in broad daylight in the street every week, young women and girls being the usual victims. I reported it to every agency I could. Everyone acknowledged the problem. No one would take action. Never happier than when I left there.

[quote yawnsvillex]@Pimlicojo it's a religion not a cult [/quote]
Sounds like a cult. Behaves in many ways like a cult. Call it what you like.

@Belleende

Once upon a time I lived in a flat in Stamford Hill, near an illegal venue very like this. I saw close up how a sect can live with the benefits of a western democracy but completely ignore all rules and regulations. Planning, parking, schooling, entertainment licenses, health and safety, safeguarding. The lot. I was personally threatened when I complained to the council about being kept awake for months on end by an illegal venue used for religious celebrations. No one wanted to know. All advice was, sorry love best you move.

I was horrified by the treatment of young girls and women that I saw. I am so crystal clear that as a country we should protect the rights of vulnerable individuals over the right to religious freedom.

So what do we do about this "Jewish problem" then? Because you seem to see us as a problem in "your" community.

@Sheleg

Because you seem to see us as a problem in "your" community

I don't think anyone is branding anyone as a 'problem'

It is apparent from most responses on the thread that all people want is for everybody who lives in a country to abide by the law. No exceptions. That's all

If they don't mix how do they support themselves?

A considerable number don't; their extreme isolation, educational practises and heavy religious commitments can make it very difficult to access outside employment, so welfare dependency is high - especially given the number of children who need providing for

@Sheleg No one is talking about a “Jewish problem”. Why are you turning this discussion into something it’s not? Have you actually read the thread or just decided to twist things?

@Puzzledandpissedoff

If they don't mix how do they support themselves?

A considerable number don't; their extreme isolation, educational practises and heavy religious commitments can make it very difficult to access outside employment, so welfare dependency is high - especially given the number of children who need providing for

They shun mainstream society but are completely dependent upon its largesse, whilst also completely dominating and controlling the women folk Nice work if you can get it 🙄

Who gets married on a Thursday in January in a school?

@RAOK Well Jews don’t usually have weddings on Fridays or Saturdays due to it being Shabbat, the day of rest, from Friday evening to Saturday evening. So it’s either a Sunday or a weekday wedding.

And there are lots of schools in the UK that you can hire out as wedding venues. I know nothing about this venue but the older schools in particular can have some pretty spaces.

@RAOK

Who gets married on a Thursday in January in a school?

Orthodox and ultra Orthodox Jews because of Shabbat which would preclude weddings on Friday/Saturday.

@RAOK

www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-03-29-vw-975-story.html%3f_amp=true

some hasidic communities set rule for their community that limit how extravagant a wedding can be- for example, maybe silk flowers not fresh, not an expensive hall, less expensive food. This was because families were bankrupting themselves to have huge extravagant events that landed them in a lot of debt in a bid to outdo each other , and some were even taking out loans. A girl from an orthodox school once told me that her school even had rules for the girls' bat mitzvahs because they didn't want the poorer girls to feel bad about their more modest celebrations. Weddings and bar mitzvahs are milestone events and there is this temptation to go all out.

I do respect this, the difference with Jews of all denominations is that as the community is relatively small, we tend to mix closely with people of varied socio-economic backgrounds through synagogue/schools and we tend to live in the same areas.You really do get this less in the secular world and not to the same degree. For the kids in my (reform) synagogue, there were children of billionaires and also children on free school meals in the same religious school class. You could see the difference in the bar/bat mitzvah every Saturday and yes it can get ridiculously fancy. But of course as my synagogue isn't controlling, they can't restrict what parents want to spend on their kids. But at the same time, it gives the wrong impression that money is what matters and goodness know the children are aware of that outside of synagogue, surely synagogue should be a safe haven away from all that.

@RAOK and so that's why haredi weddings can be in simpler venues as they have so many guests and the parent is paying the whole bill. And would pay the bill for all 8 of their children.

I am a member of the Brethren community.

We use the NHS. We pay Taxes, and we most certainly do not have houses bought for us. We have smartphones and internet, read newspapers and are FULLY up to date with whats happening world wide.

There are no weddings in our community at the moment, and all church services are online and on Zoom.
We haven't seen friends or family either since last Feb/March.

I have a job, and am married with Children.

It makes me absolutely mad the amount of crap we get.

In actual fact I have binged watched Bridgerton tonight....

Numbers were actually 150, not 400.

Oh, well that’s ok then.

I am against all mandatory CV19 measures

Why @Xenia? What do you propose instead? A free for all, with no-one being able to access medical care because the NHS can’t cope?

You failed to answer this earlier.

Does anyone see the irony of these people believing in the sacrement of life and food laws – no to contraception or abortions, not eating pork because it is unclean, not eating dairy with meat, yet it is OK to gather in large groups and spread a potentially deadly virus?

That is an excellent description of their lifestyle @DeRigueurMortis. “Extreme” or “cult” religions aren’t just about faith. They are very much about their entire lifestyle. I used to share a flat with a couple of Mormons, went to school with some Brethren and met several more in a professional capacity and worked with a Jehovah’s Witness. So, I have had some insight into their way of thinking. While I don’t agree with their way of thinking I will say that all of these people were the nicest, kindest and most honest people I have ever come across.

A considerable number don't; their extreme isolation, educational practises and heavy religious commitments can make it very difficult to access outside employment, so welfare dependency is high - especially given the number of children who need providing for

I find it depressing that these people aren’t encouraged to have a positive work ethic.

Thank you for posting @RedBudTree. I’m pleased to see that they have moved on with the times. Back in the 1970s/80 and 90s this was not the case. I knew a few Brethren at school in the 1970s and they certainly weren’t allowed TV or radio. The ones I knew in the 1980s wouldn’t accept orders by fax because they didn’t own one, so we had to telephone orders through. The company I worked for used to print a catalogue for the Brethren community, and we had to remove all photography containing bar codes and all modern tech products.

I want to say that this thread has been so interesting and informative. I have read every link – even the lengthy PDF . Thank you for starting this thread @TheQueef, and to everyone else who have posted their experiences. I have found this very educational. And I’m glad that it hasn’t descended into a bunfight.

Once again, can I urge anyone who hasn’t watched it to watch Unorthodox (on Netflix). It gives a fascinating insight into the lives of the Satmar Jewish community in New York.

I find it depressing that these people aren’t encouraged to have a positive work ethic

TBF many of the ultra orthodox are - but within their own communities, which given the limitations this imposes and modern day changes is partly why unemployment is so high

It's often not that they don't want to work, but that their chosen lifestyle can make access to it very difficult

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I find it depressing that these people aren’t encouraged to have a positive work ethic

TBF many of the ultra orthodox are - but within their own communities, which given the limitations this imposes and modern day changes is partly why unemployment is so high

It's often not that they don't want to work, but that their chosen lifestyle can make access to it very difficult

A "positive work ethic" is an idea reflected from your values. Why do you assume everyone would share those values and place importance on the same things as you?

People with different values might say of you, "I find it depressing that she is not encouraged to show true devotion to her faith and community". Or judge you for putting money, materiality and business above religious teachings.

onlychildandhamster I don’t know very much about the ultra orthodox schools but the rules for “ordinary” private schools are the same as for state schools. If the school can be convinced that the children need to be at school (and 12 children in a small flat aren’t going to do a lot of distance learning) then the children would be allowed to go in.

Why would they be leasing the building at the moment - the school are culpable by doing this surely?

Must be some loophole that allowed the hiring out... imagine a keen dancer kid just wants a big space to do routines in. Or someone had a lot of paperwork to lay out & organise (like 100s of items). Doesn't mean has to be bad reasons for hiring the hall.

@CruCru Great *sarcastic

This means the whole class can go in. My DH had 3 siblings and in his haredi primary school, his family was considered tiny. I understand the rationale for the policy, but haredi families are very different from low income british families. Even families who may not be 'poor' from a finances point of view would have overcrowded homes as the vast majority of housing stock in hackney do not cater to an average family size of 7 children.