DD’s science teacher AIBU

[Adviceneededalways]

Dd14 is quite an opinionated teen and has become very sensitive to even a sniff of inequality. I think it’s quite cool that she has strong beliefs but do sometimes have to tell her her to rein it in a bit..

She came down from Google classroom tonight on a fowl mood and announced that she was drafting a complaint letter to her science teacher due to an argument they had over an exercise in class...

The exercise was dividing statements into fact and opinion, ie FACT on average the sun is 150 million miles from the sun. OPINION pineapple taste good on pizza...

The final one was girls should be able to work in any area they choose which I’m sure you have guess the teacher was adamant was opinion and if had been marked down on the sheet as such...

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

Is she being a bit immature and dramatic or does she have a point...

I’ll include the work sheet in next post.

I have no problem telling her she is wrong about something if the answer is black and white but as we have seen within the 13+ pages on here with this, it is not

Because many people. like your daughter, are not seeing the difference between fact and opinion in this instance.

My first instinct like many others here was to think poor teacher and that although an unfortunate choice of example, not something to worry about too much. My second was to consider how I would feel about it if the word girls was replaced by black people and the reactions that people would have to that. I find this useful to check internalised misogyny and the assumption that I shouldn’t make a fuss.

is is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example

I think it is a brilliant example. I'm very hot on equality and an old gimmer so jot new to this and I had to think for a moment about that one.

Your teen sounds great. I do hope she takes time to reflect and that her letter will say it took her a moment but now realises...

The teacher does not need to be cut any slack. It's a good way to check whether the substance of the lessen has land or that more work is required.

Yes of course it’s opinion and on that basis unassailable but that’s not the point. The issue is whether that choice of example sends the message when given in a formal setting from an authority figure to those of lesser status that this is something to be debated as potentially questionable- a choice I feel wouldn’t have been made in the racial context (I sincerely hope) not because anything should be no debate but because some sensitivity to history hurt and social context is called for.

I hope the teacher follows up with a simple matrix with one axis of

opinions / facts

and the other axis

true / untrue.

I would have been SO furious about this as a teen.

Fact, opinion, and also principles on which society is founded.

Like "murder is wrong" and "we should not stand by and watch children starve" pace Marcus Rashford.

@lottiegarbanzo

I have no problem telling her she is wrong about something if the answer is black and white but as we have seen within the 13+ pages on here with this, it is not...

It is black and white. She is wrong. You are wrong. The people on the thread who've got this wrong are wrong.

'Truth' is not formulated by majority opinion. More truly dangerous Trumpism there.

I love this! @lottiegarbanzo for president!

This question is very close to my heart.

The first lesson, certainly the very first memorable lecture, it was definitely early on in my first year, dealt with the difference between facts and opinions.

It was a real eye opener for me

Simple examples that everyone can immediately grasp are useful to found the idea, really interesting stuff is more complicated.

I have to disagree with some opinions here saying that this example shouldn't have been used in a science class.
You'd think that a science class is a great place to discuss the subject of women doing anything they want or not.
It's easy to say that while we can all agree that they should (and encourage girls to do science subjects), it is our opinion. Many other people have a different opinion and do prevent women from working in areas they want.

I think the issue here is that some people should practice listening to other people's opinions. It's hard for most and more for teenagers.

The sentence could be written with men instead of women, and she'd probably see it more clearly for what it is.

I wouldn't criticise the teacher too much without knowing how she addressed the discussion about it. Second hand accounts don't count.

@FinallyHere

I hope the teacher follows up with a simple matrix with one axis of

opinions / facts

and the other axis

true / untrue.

How would that work out? How is an opinion true or false? Unless it is a lie, and the person doesn't hold that opinion. If it is a matter of opinion, then it can't be false or true.

If someone says that they think the Earth is flat, it is not a matter of opinion. The shape of the Earth can be demonstrated easily, so, it's a false statement rather than a false opinion.

To think the shape of the Earth is a matter of opinion is what is untrue.
"My opinion is valid in relation to the shape of the Earth" is false, and that is a matter of fact.

Aw thanks @ZaraTheWonderDog

I have a horrible feeling though, that telling people bluntly that they're wrong, isn't going to win me many votes!

@lottiegarbanzo you got my vote.

It was your opinion at the time, and you didn't frame it as a fact. So, you're fine.

It comes back to that classic exam advice: Answer the question. That is, read and make sure you have understood the question before answering. Answering what you think the question was about rather than what the question actually was, is likely to earn you no marks.

Absolutely this

@wildraisins

But if it comes up in this context, in a science lesson, out of the blue, it just perpetuates misogyny as part of our day to day lives and it is a part of the problem.

I could not disagree more. As PPs have pointed out, it is much more difficult to distinguish facts and 'options which which I agree'.

From a woman STEM teacher, who will know a thing or two about careless misogyny and may, indeed, see distinguishing facts from opinions as the very key to identifying casual misogyny

I think it was important to include an opinion that would be shared by (almost) everyone in the class, including the teacher, to illustrate that this doesn't make it a scientific fact. Maybe that was the point of this example? This should have been emphasised in the class discussion, though.

This is a difficult one - has your daughter considered the fact that her teacher is likely to have written this from a place of support for women (because women do STILL have to fight to be allowed to work in all sectors)?

She's a woman, FFS. Have you EVER met a woman who thinks women shouldn't be allowed to do certain jobs??!!

You're DD is looking for reason to be offended here and you need to teach her a lesson in winding her neck in. If she were to go about this the ADULT way, she would drop her teacher an email and ASK why the statement wasn't fact.

In language terms the sheet is absolutely correct - 2 scientific facts 1 personal opinion & 1 arguable opinion which could be met with biased disagreement.

I can't believe she was writing a letter of complaint about this!!

PS - I love how my reply starts like 'Hmmmm, difficult one' then end with WTF, of course your DD IBU!!!

I mean, she is though!!!

But difficult for you to deal with.

To me, there's no ambiguity about the answer since it's science. I believe you cannot include emotion into answering scientific question. Great to have opinions and have discussion about something you feel strongly about, but the aim of the question was to distinguish fact from opinion. Quite simple, and I would definitely teaching my dc at the similar age the difference.

She's a woman, FFS. Have you EVER met a woman who thinks women shouldn't be allowed to do certain jobs??!!

Yes, loads. Amazed if you haven't.

Do women do front line combat roles in the army ? I didn't think they did still ? I thought it was still support roles. I'm sure there are other examples where strength is the issue. It's like you can be a female firefighter, but there aren't many who can pass the tests carrying all the gear. We know not all men are strong and there are some amazing women athletes, but some roles are more suited to men. I wouldn't want to work on an oil rig.

If it is a matter of opinion, then it can't be false or true.

Obvs should have explained further, sorry @Lweji I was trying to think of exercises which might help clarify the difference between opinions and facts. If I had a group of people with emotions running high, I'd put up the matrix and invite them to classify each of the statements.

In doing so, they may indeed see something of the difference between opinions and facts.

Another thing I would do is ask them to bring in some examples from newspapers, to see whether they are reading opinions or facts. And compare the same story in different newspapers too

Though I completely agree that @lottiegarbanzo wins MN today.

This thread is a great example of why this topic (distinguishing facts and opinions ) is never more important.

So many people mistaking their own opinions for facts and failing to distinguish facts from opinions.

It's an opinion. There is no debate over that. Just because you believe that such a statement SHOULD be fact, that doesn't make it any less of an opinion.

It's also a very good example to illustrate the difference between fact and opinion, but only if the teacher is prepared to spend the time debating it out properly. Just sticking it on a worksheet and expecting everyone to accept it is really, really stupid.