DD’s science teacher AIBU

[Adviceneededalways]

Dd14 is quite an opinionated teen and has become very sensitive to even a sniff of inequality. I think it’s quite cool that she has strong beliefs but do sometimes have to tell her her to rein it in a bit..

She came down from Google classroom tonight on a fowl mood and announced that she was drafting a complaint letter to her science teacher due to an argument they had over an exercise in class...

The exercise was dividing statements into fact and opinion, ie FACT on average the sun is 150 million miles from the sun. OPINION pineapple taste good on pizza...

The final one was girls should be able to work in any area they choose which I’m sure you have guess the teacher was adamant was opinion and if had been marked down on the sheet as such...

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

Is she being a bit immature and dramatic or does she have a point...

I’ll include the work sheet in next post.

Not rtft because it's quite long but wanted to give my two pence. It is obviously a fact that girls women can work in whatever field they like.

I would actually encourage her to write a letter, not necessarily a complaint about the teacher but a piece on the inequalities and prejudices faced by women and why the statement was offensive. Encouraged further by that fact that it's a female science teacher who should know better!
Obviously make sure it doesn't get too ranty or off topic but being able to spark and sustain a debate should be encouraged.

@Jellycatspyjamas

she uses this as a platform to educate and share information of what is going on in the world.

I’m pretty sure her teacher, in a STEM subject, doesn’t need educated or informed about what’s going on the world.

Well played Jellycat. Well played.

I am very pleased that your daughter is so engaged in politics and is doing practical things to challenge inequality. I would be proud of her too.

Encouraging her to argue with her teacher when she is in the wrong is not something I would encourage.

I agree, but the question was “is there any job a girl cannot do” and the fact is there are jobs that girls/women cannot do

No, that wasn't the question

First of all "girls" can't do any career they choose, because they are children.
Can women, is the question? And the answer is no.

It's not a fact, it's an opinion, and without qualifiers and better wording, it's a nonsense opinion.

Your DD is wrong and should cool her jets.

It's about precision in language really and I wonder if the mistake in the statement about the sun and the ambiguity in the blood test was deliberate to encourage debate. Or are they just mistakes?

So I'd say (as your friendly resident scientist) that all 4 are opinions. Pineapple and girls' work are obviously opinions and as we've seen on this thread there's plenty of ways to show that each are just an opinion. The sun because it's wrong so not a fact ('there are fairies at the bottom of the garden' is stated using language that implies certainty but that doesn't make it a fact) and the blood test because there could be other factors in the post mortem (not autopsy, that's American) that point to a more immediate cause of death, be it a physical wound or asphyxiation. TBH this seems very basic for 14yo (Y8 or Y9?) if it's not being used as a way to generate that kind of debate. So has the OP's daughter not engaged in the lesson and understood that there's no such thing as a fact just evidence that points one way or another? I'd let her sit down and write a well argued letter, the effort of having to be reasonable and logical may dissuade her from actually sending it.

But some opinions in science/general are contenscious, that's probably the point that is being made. I am sure a female teacher with a science degree is well aware of the impact of the statement, given that women are still underrepresented in science degrees (although the number is rising which is good). It was probably to prove the point that it's not always easy to distinguish fact and opinion, and that no doubt you will come across many opinions that you disagree with, but that doesn't mean that they are just ignored and not considered/explored from an academic point of view. Especially in science where you get some absolutely batshit ideas being passed off as fact when they are just (misguided) opinion. Not all opinions are good ones, or right in the eye of the reader, but they are opinions none the less

Even if the teacher deliberately put this statement on the worksheet to open up a debate about feminism, it is poor teaching, and I will tell you why.

This is a Science class. There is not going to be a whole hour to devote to discussing this topic. It's one statement on a worksheet which presumably forms a small part of the lesson.

In order to discuss this and allow your daughter to express herself and have an appropriate debate that won't leave the kids feeling frustrated an angry, the teacher would have to devote the entire lesson to this one subject.

Firstly, that's not appopriate as it's a science lesson, and secondly, they simply wouldn't have had time for it amongst the other things they had to get done.

Personally I think the teacher was just unaware and out of touch - but even if they were aware and wanted to spark a debate, they are still out of touch as they haven't considered how much space they actually need to give this topic.

Rubbish teaching - let your daughter write her letter!

@Adviceneededalways

Just to clear a few things up, the idea that I’m scared of my daughter is absolutely laughable, I have 3 of them and made of stronger stuff than that...

I’m actually pretty proud of her, there are no pouting pictures of her on Instagram and instead she uses this as a platform to educate and share information of what is going on in the world. She has quite the thing for American politics and has been pretty clued up throughout the election. She is musical and creative with her own style. She’s kind and generous and wears her heart on her sleeve which occasionally hurts my heart a little, she volunteered with beach clean up and soup kitchens and is always asking if there is more she can do...

She is also on the more academic track (schools phrase) and is excelling in most subjects and is well liked by her teachers.

I have no problem telling her she is wrong about something if the answer is black and white but as we have seen within the 13+ pages on here with this, it is not...

I'm sure she's marvellous but I'm not sure the poor teacher has got the time, energy or inclination to educated by a 14 year old at the moment.

but I'm not sure the poor teacher has got the time, energy or inclination to educated by a 14 year old at the moment.

Ain't that the truth.

she uses this as a platform to educate and share information of what is going on in the world.

If she intends to be an educator she really should know what she’s talking about and learn the difference between a statement of fact and a statement of opinion. Going off the deep end because she’s passionate does not make her an educator.

I used to teach Critical Thinking as a subject at A level and I used to use single contentious statements like this as the basis of a whole lesson, precisely because there’s so much unpicking involved. That specification doesn’t exist any more but there’s a Cambridge International Thinking Skills AS/A level currently available which has many similarities. It could be a very useful course for the OP’s DD and others to do alongside other subjects, if the school would consider it.

but I'm not sure the poor teacher has got the time, energy or inclination to educated by a 14 year old at the moment

Especially one who's wrong!

I have no problem telling her she is wrong about something if the answer is black and white but as we have seen within the 13+ pages on here with this, it is not...

It is black and white. She is wrong. You are wrong. The people on the thread who've got this wrong are wrong.

'Truth' is not formulated by majority opinion. More truly dangerous Trumpism there.

Let your DD have a vent.

She’s couped up in this lockdown and expected to learn in an unnatural environment.

Let her write the complaint letter, it will make her feel better.

Perhaps the teacher wanted invoke a debate which is what he got.

@singsingbluesilver but where did I say did...

I wasn’t part of her science lesson, I only heard about it after the event...

I said in my OP that I thought it was more a case of a bad example in a class of very aware and opinionated girls rather than it being an opinion

I have also thanked those that have given me ideas of how I can discuss with my DD and use it as a very clever example of fact/science where we don’t always like the outcome...

I think because I haven’t told her she is absolutely ridiculous to question anything she doesn’t instantly see as ethically correct straight away or shot her down with a “YOU’RE WRONG” and instead used it as line of discussion I must be raising a disobedient and rude child...

I would take her any day than a child that just has no fire or opinion or questions on the life around them.

I disagree that a science lesson is the wrong forum for a discussion about facts and opinions - it's exactly the right place!
I did a science degree and one of the modules we had to take was philosophy, wherein we learnt about logical fallacies, hypotheses and rebuttals, false thinking, and assumptions of fact AS WELL AS the difference between fact and opinion.

How can one be a decent scientist when one can't tell the difference between a fact and an opinion?

But she IS wrong.

Its a science class, and its an opinion as proved by the use of the word 'should'

Its not a law/ethics debate class.

If you want to use it as a launch point to have a discussion with her about it, thats up to you, but in the context of the science lesson its Opinion, not Fact, and your DD shouldn't be telling her Teacher off at all.

I think because I haven’t told her she is absolutely ridiculous to question anything she doesn’t instantly see as ethically correct straight away or shot her down with a “YOU’RE WRONG” and instead used it as line of discussion I must be raising a disobedient and rude child....

You can explain to your child that they’re wrong without shooting them down or shouting. Being able to explain the statement was opinion, that in fact not everyone agrees with that opinion and that as much as we wish it weren’t so, there are some career choices still not open to women in the U.K. and around the world. You can support her to challenge inequality and campaign for equality while also helping her to temper her hot headedness, which is as valuable a life skill as being able to distinguish between opinion and fact.

Its an opinion. Dont make a big fuss about it but complain to the head of department and make sure they dont include that for other classes.

Not only is it offensive its the wrong bloody answer.

@MrsHusky yes but I have said several times already I think a child is far better reaching the right answer theirselves through discussion and further than telling her she is wrong and shutting down any line of conversation about it...

She 14, if I said “I don’t care what you have to say, you’re incorrect and I don’t want to hear any more about it” for example, how is that teaching her anything?!

People who are saying it's black and white - yes, the answer of whether that statement is grammatically and semantically fact or opinion is black and white. It's opinion.

However, what is absolutely not black and white are all the other issues surround the teacher's choice of statements for this worksheet and the context in which she is teaching it, and whether OP's daughter is justified in being upset and having some sort of complaint (I think she is).

That is what the debate and grey areas on the thread are about.

She 14, if I said “I don’t care what you have to say, you’re incorrect and I don’t want to hear any more about it” for example, how is that teaching her anything?!

Why on earth would you do that? Does saying “no” or telling someone they’re wrong equate to being an arsehole in your mind?

@Jellycatspyjamas I said near enough exactly that in the last post of mine you chose to quote except you decided to leave that bit out...

Funny that.

She 14, if I said “I don’t care what you have to say, you’re incorrect and I don’t want to hear any more about it” for example, how is that teaching her anything?!

I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that as a way of dealing with it. I’m interested to know how you think her writing to her teacher to complain about being told she was wrong when, in the context of the lesson she was indeed wrong is going to teach her anything useful.

It’s an opinion. Your daughter is coming towards adulthood where she’ll hear lots of opinion that she doesn’t like. It’s great that she’s strongly principled but writing a letter won’t change the fact that it’s an opinion. It seems over the top to write a letter. I can’t imagine how much pressure teachers are under at the moment. He may have given a poor example but I would encourage her to cut him some slack. In the future she’ll have tons of better examples that warrant letters.

Good for you for raising a strong minded girl.