DD’s science teacher AIBU

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Dd14 is quite an opinionated teen and has become very sensitive to even a sniff of inequality. I think it’s quite cool that she has strong beliefs but do sometimes have to tell her her to rein it in a bit..

She came down from Google classroom tonight on a fowl mood and announced that she was drafting a complaint letter to her science teacher due to an argument they had over an exercise in class...

The exercise was dividing statements into fact and opinion, ie FACT on average the sun is 150 million miles from the sun. OPINION pineapple taste good on pizza...

The final one was girls should be able to work in any area they choose which I’m sure you have guess the teacher was adamant was opinion and if had been marked down on the sheet as such...

I personally think this is less about being opinion or fact statement and more to do with it being a poor choice of example in a class of predominantly strong minded young girls but DD is very upset and angry at her teacher.

Is she being a bit immature and dramatic or does she have a point...

I’ll include the work sheet in next post.

"I think the teacher walked right into that one!"

Tbh I think that Op's daughter did!

know you are exaggerating but we didn't have printed worksheets in the 60s. 70s either for that matter. No photocopiers, most people did not have a computer in the classroom when I started teaching in the 90s

We did sometimes with the wonderfully alcoholic purple ink. I also remember others, often stapled together into books. Maybe they were printed?

The teacher is right, by scientific measures it's opinion not fact. It's a good exercise if you ask me but the objective of the exercise was missed.

The question to ask was: what supporting evidence can be put forward to 'prove' it's a fact? You can prove the sun is X distance from the earth. You can't prove that women can do any job (any more than you can prove any man can..). If you can prove it, it is a fact, if you can't it's an opinion ( or hypothesis).

reverse this -simply ask teacher question (teach dd a way of pseudo innocent question, from an expert of winding up teachers et al)
"I am confused - is there any job a woman cannot do?" needs to be said in questioning way with a slight smile - not anger
& pp @contrmary
hmm how about transman - sometimes they might need a gynaecologist?
(whole different argument!)

The "opinion" was that girls SHOULD BE ABLE TO work in any area they choose. Not CAN

I would say to your dd that in the U.K. girls can but it doesn't say in the U.K. and in many countries this is not the case. I have an opinionated dd too, seriously headstrong - she's on a university course with only 15% women and has a place to train as an officer in the military!

I’m confused - is there any job a woman cannot do?" needs to be said in questioning way with a slight smile - not anger

To which the teacher would hopefully reply yes, you can’t be a catholic priest, or Pope, and around the world women face significant restrictions in the work they are permitted to do.

I think your dd is over-reacting. Maybe lockdown is getting to her? It is to my teen. The opinion in the woreksheet should open up a good discussion, but the teacher presumably didn't mean the kids to spend hours debating that statement. It's just an example of an opinion.

I wold not contact the school - teachers are on their knees preparing online resources, contacting kids who don't hand in homework, checking on students, sending kids homework in other formats if they can't download it, marking and giving feedback, going in to school to teach key workers' children, etc, etc.

I'd tell dd to say that its opinion and incorrect, as girls are young women and you need to be a certain age, and therefore a woman, before you can work in thise areas.

@Jellycatspyjamas

I’m confused - is there any job a woman cannot do?" needs to be said in questioning way with a slight smile - not anger

To which the teacher would hopefully reply yes, you can’t be a catholic priest, or Pope, and around the world women face significant restrictions in the work they are permitted to do.

But they Should be able to!

It is an opinion. Okay another example would be. Men can work wherever they want such as hairdressing etc.

Your daughter was put in a position she shouldn't have been put in. She was presented with an outdated view by a thoughtless teacher and so wasn't given the adequate space to respond to it. That is poor teaching

@wildraisins

Unfortunately it isn’t an outdated view. Worldwide, females are subjected to discrimination on account of their sex. Pretending this isn’t the case is doing a disservice to those females. Because it implies there is no more work to be done to change that. Just maybe this teacher knew exactly what she was doing and has opened up the discussion around how females are still considered an underclass to males by many countries.

I think it's a great example on the part of the science teacher - because it demonstrates how very emotive and charged subjects can get in the way of objectivity. Your daughter's reaction, which is understandable, illustrates her teacher's point perfectly.

This is an excellent analysis question for o or a levels actually. My initial thought was ‘girls should’ is fact, ‘girls can’ is not true. But actually the use of should implies an opinion, possibly a moral judgement, and others would disagree that should is correct. So really it’s an opinion, a fairly commonly accepted one these days with some exceptions for safety reasons, but an opinion based on a number of opinions about equal opportunity.

It's an opinion technically yes but it's a very goady example and is completely inappropriate.

Would they use the same question and replace girl with black person?! Doubt it!

@tenlittlecygnets

I think your dd is over-reacting. Maybe lockdown is getting to her? It is to my teen. The opinion in the woreksheet should open up a good discussion, but the teacher presumably didn't mean the kids to spend hours debating that statement. It's just an example of an opinion.

I wold not contact the school - teachers are on their knees preparing online resources, contacting kids who don't hand in homework, checking on students, sending kids homework in other formats if they can't download it, marking and giving feedback, going in to school to teach key workers' children, etc, etc.

the teacher presumably didn't mean the kids to spend hours debating that statement. It's just an example of an opinion.

Exactly - this is why it's bad teaching. The teacher should have seen it coming that it would cause huge debate, and should have changed the worksheet. He/she seems a bit out of touch to me.

I can’t believe there are really people here who can’t tell the difference between a fact and opinion. It’s really not difficult. It’s quite shocking. Proof that children need to be back in school ASAP.

But they Should be able to!

I agree, but the question was “is there any job a girl cannot do” and the fact is there are jobs that girls/women cannot do. My opinion is they should be able to buy the fact is they can’t. Which is why it’s important to continue to highlight structural and systemic discriminations, not pretend it does exist to appease a hot headed teenager.

@Frodont

The "opinion" was that girls SHOULD BE ABLE TO work in any area they choose. Not CAN

But even using ‘can’ does not make it a fact, because there are many instances worldwide where girls are prohibited from specific jobs.

It would be a fact if it had said “in Britain, girls are able to do any job they choose apart from those that are exempt from them under the Law, and those that they are not capable of doing.”

Just to clear a few things up, the idea that I’m scared of my daughter is absolutely laughable, I have 3 of them and made of stronger stuff than that...

I’m actually pretty proud of her, there are no pouting pictures of her on Instagram and instead she uses this as a platform to educate and share information of what is going on in the world. She has quite the thing for American politics and has been pretty clued up throughout the election. She is musical and creative with her own style. She’s kind and generous and wears her heart on her sleeve which occasionally hurts my heart a little, she volunteered with beach clean up and soup kitchens and is always asking if there is more she can do...

She is also on the more academic track (schools phrase) and is excelling in most subjects and is well liked by her teachers.

I have no problem telling her she is wrong about something if the answer is black and white but as we have seen within the 13+ pages on here with this, it is not...

It isn’t a scientific fact. The teacher was very clever in using it - knowing full well that it would spark debate and interest, so that her class of ‘predominantly strong minded girls’ remember the lesson. Great job, Ms. Science Teacher!

@Soontobe60

Your daughter was put in a position she shouldn't have been put in. She was presented with an outdated view by a thoughtless teacher and so wasn't given the adequate space to respond to it. That is poor teaching

@wildraisins

Unfortunately it isn’t an outdated view. Worldwide, females are subjected to discrimination on account of their sex. Pretending this isn’t the case is doing a disservice to those females. Because it implies there is no more work to be done to change that. Just maybe this teacher knew exactly what she was doing and has opened up the discussion around how females are still considered an underclass to males by many countries.

I see what you are saying but I disagree that the teacher knew what they were doing and wanted to open this up in a Science lesson. I think the teacher wanted a simple exercise to discuss fact vs. opinion.

I therefore think the teacher is out of touch.

Also, I think that in UK schools it should be considered an outdated view. As I've said previously, PSHE, History and English are appropriate places in which to discuss how misogyny does still affect people in the UK and other parts of the world today.

Sorry “not pretend it doesn’t exist.”

she uses this as a platform to educate and share information of what is going on in the world.

I’m pretty sure her teacher, in a STEM subject, doesn’t need educated or informed about what’s going on the world.

Unfortunately it isn’t an outdated view. Worldwide, females are subjected to discrimination on account of their sex. Pretending this isn’t the case is doing a disservice to those females. Because it implies there is no more work to be done to change that. Just maybe this teacher knew exactly what she was doing and has opened up the discussion around how females are still considered an underclass to males by many countries.

I heard the other day that in Australia there are as many CEOs named Andrew as there are female CEOs. I'm sure it's similar in most countries (just maybe not the specific Andrew example).

Yes the should/can use is another point to consider, but really is something this emotive the right way to raise that nuance?

It's a great talking point, maybe not for a science lesson. Why was this even a question in a science lesson?

I love that OPs daughter feels so strongly! Good on her for standing up, although perhaps raising it with the teacher in a more constructive way than a complain is the way to go. Ask to discuss with the teacher why she (rightly) believes the statement is a fact and why the teacher chose/kept that specific example to open a dialogue. It could have been carefully chosen to start a discussion or it could have been a sheet downloaded and barely looked at before being used. Either way the teacher needs to be more aware of the content regardless of audience, saying they work hard isn't an excuse for Blanca to discriminatory views.