.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

[quote Sethy38]@LizFlowers

State schools are not permitted to get involved with 11 plus preparation in any way whatsoever[/quote]
My point exactly! Yet they love the kudos when their pupils are accepted to a grammar school.

(Some primary schools around do prepare kids for 11+ even if they don't call it that and not all pupils takes the exam. It's called 'education'.)

@LizFlowers

They are actually not allowed to.

[quote Sethy38]@LizFlowers

They are actually not allowed to.[/quote]
How ridiculous, when did that start? I've known children in recent times who were prepared for 11+ at their primary.
(I am not 'at' LizFlowers by the way, just LizFlowers will do)

The UK's private education system is world renowned for its education and apolitical teaching. Approx 1 in 5 pupils at independent schools have parents who live abroad or are foreigners based in the UK. It is one of the UK's best examples of "soft power". In no way should it be scrapped.

Having said that I totally agree that the schools are businesses and should be treated that way for tax. They should be banned from charitable status, and fees should be subject to standard VAT. In lieu of VAT they could take 20% of their pupils fee-free from those nominated by the Local Authority.

@jcyclops

The UK's private education system is world renowned for its education and apolitical teaching. Approx 1 in 5 pupils at independent schools have parents who live abroad or are foreigners based in the UK. It is one of the UK's best examples of "soft power". In no way should it be scrapped.

Having said that I totally agree that the schools are businesses and should be treated that way for tax. They should be banned from charitable status, and fees should be subject to standard VAT. In lieu of VAT they could take 20% of their pupils fee-free from those nominated by the Local Authority.

Absolutely to first paragraph. It would be crazy to remove this from the UK.

On second point you’d get lower percentage using private, state would have to absorb this. And would loss of charitable status mean bursaries end? Not sure what else has to be done as a result of status.

Not only would bursaries end, but the specialist private schools that teach children with moderate to profound difficulties would also lose their charitable status.
It's more cost effective for LAs to outsource the education of these children.

Personally I’d rather see a connection between private and communities that can’t afford them than remove charitable status and draw up the bridge totally.

Adding VAT would take out a fair few who sacrifice to pay school fees. Is that helpful with state stretched?

I think keep it as it is but try and get state numbers in class down a bit. This is one of the biggest differences. Plus help around disruption in some way - pp mentioned other schools for some students but not sure of best way.

@Tanith

Not only would bursaries end, but the specialist private schools that teach children with moderate to profound difficulties would also lose their charitable status. It's more cost effective for LAs to outsource the education of these children.

It's not just about LAs outsourcing SEN schooling. In my county its systemic cost cutting of SEND support in state that let's the private sector get a foothold.

My LA cant employ Speech therapists, but both kids private schools can. Why? Wages. Shirt sighted cost cutting of funding in the LA means they pay more via a middle man.

My LA know this but rather than wanting to address it they are cutting back on SEND even more. Go figure. It's so corrupt and short sighted but only the SEND parents care.

My county wants to stop 1:1 funding and EHCPs. So close private SEN schools as as much as wealthy little Tristan who's mummy is a barrister pulls your kids up. My kid non verbal kids with ADHD will disrupt the class a hundred times more as he will need ALL of the teachers attention just to stop him killing himself through pure accident.

But hey so what as long as we are equal. Who cares if that's at the bottom or top? Same barriers to education and the curriculum for every one right? As well as the same opportunities. If it good enough to pull the adverage kid up, it's good enough to pull them down right, fair is fair

Neither my husband or I went to private schools. We chose to send our kids to goverment school so they could have similar experiences. My children spent most of their education in either an outstanding primary or an outstanding grammar - I thought we were lucky until we realised my daughter's grammar was an exam sweat shop and bad for her mental health. Was advised by a specialist to move her to a more nuturing school and she has now been in private for 18 months. Despite my children having been to outstanding government schools - after my experience of a private school I am doubting my past decisions to send my children to outstanding primaries. I can see how building a child's confidence is a higher priority in a private school and that is what will help them be resilant as adults. The UK does need an overhaul of its education system though.

Everyone I know with dc in private education seems to think their dc is getting a better education but unless it’s one of the top schools in not sure that’s actually the case. I don’t think 5 live lessons a day homeschooling is appropriate for a seven year old but it’s done because the school can demonstrate it’s “worth the money” rather than the best approach for the dc. But I’m in the lucky position that my daughter is in a good state school with a superb head teacher and teaching team.

So close private SEN schools as as much as wealthy little Tristan who's mummy is a barrister pulls your kids up.

Lego, I don’t understand this sentence.

I agree.

It is a symbolism of both hierarchy and entitlement and I think it does perpetuate an elite that transcends all areas of our culture, politics and opportunity. Luckily (ahem), most of the 'worker bee's are too busy working to contemplate an uprising.

You are fortunate, mOtherofdragons. Im sure your children will thrive. Unfortunately there are areas where good state schools are rare.

Not all private schools are great, we know that, but if parents want their children to have a reasonably academic education, they will find a school that suits. There are some that have a more gentle approach and are very good for shy, sensitive children who don't have a lot of confidence but will do quite well in that environment and later, when they are at work.

My son was privately educated: past 11+ he took the piss and only did what he chose to do :-). He could easily have got an A* in skiving. However he has a great career (or did before the pandemic, currently working from home and doesn't know what the future will bring), and remembers his school days (on the whole), with affection - especially the high jinx. He and his old school friends are all confident people with sound values - some of that down to parenting of course. I'm pleased with him (don't talk about him very often so end of).

The Sutton Trust recommends that's primary school does more with grammars to the prepare dc for the 11 +, otherwise, it will only be certain dc who get through. Ie those with lots of support and help.

In ye old days grammar potential was picked out, told what they needed to work on if anything and helped by their primary school to enter.

Removing that background influences and giving the dc a more level playing field.

@Andante57

So close private SEN schools as as much as wealthy little Tristan who's mummy is a barrister pulls your kids up.

Lego, I don’t understand this sentence.

I am being sarcastic.

The point I'm trying to make is those who think the having very wealthy pupils flood into their state schools have to understand the they will also have children from SEN private schools come in to. So clever well mannered angle and also kids with extremely complex needs who some will not still, some will not understand anything.

So if we are talking about leveling out, is everyone happy to have my 8 year old with a academic age of a three year old in their kids year 5 class? Because I expect those who love who see the private elite join their kids Class wouldnt feel the same about my son.

So it's not black and white. Sorry I'm just pissed off seeing such simplistic views constantly on MN. No offense.

Lego I agree.

@LickEmbysmiling

The Sutton Trust recommends that's primary school does more with grammars to the prepare dc for the 11 +, otherwise, it will only be certain dc who get through. Ie those with lots of support and help.

In ye old days grammar potential was picked out, told what they needed to work on if anything and helped by their primary school to enter.

Removing that background influences and giving the dc a more level playing field.

Remove grammar and surely you remove some element of aspiration to try?

Grammar unlike private is open to everyone dispite you socio- economic background.

How is grammar a bad thing? It's the same as having sets in secondarysurely or should we do away with sets? Get the A** kids in with the grade 3 E kids so they can pull up the least able.

That is a race to the bottom thinking.

Btw no A** kids or grammar in my house. I came from a family who had never seen a person go to uni. Terrace Victorian house. No car. Never been abroad. Worst faith school in England go to uni as I was in a aspirational place. It wasnt a world for me yet I got there. That should be the case for everyone to step up the ladder from poverty. It shouldn't be a aspiration to go the other way.

[quote Sethy38]@LizFlowers

They are actually not allowed to.[/quote]
In class we are not. We follow the curriculum. Some schools are more helpful than others though and that often comes down to ideology.
I know of schools that offer extra curricular preparation. I know of schools that will send home practice papers and mark them. I have helped families by pointing them to the correct practice materials for the exam they wish to take.

I haven't RTFT but to offer a slightly different perspective, not everyone who chooses private schools does so for academic attainment. In fact it is the state schools obsession with testing and scoring children from reception that makes many shy away from state schools. We chose private primary for 2 reasons - that we felt that school should be about more than academic attainment and the excellent and responsive wrap around care that we couldn't find in our local state schools. We don't know if we will do private secondary, the plan is not to, but it will depend on the state of education at that time and or children's skill sets.

Typical politics of envy: if I can’t have it, neither should you.

Completely agree re children's prep offering wrap around care for working parents. You could drop off from 7am and collect up to 6pm. Breakfast, snacks, clubs and help with prep all provided.

Everything was done through school so I no longer had to rush around dropping my two at swimming lessons, music lessons, cubs etc.

If I had still been working it would be a godsend.

All that will happen is that the rich will send their children to the outstanding state schools, as happens already. The rest of society will be further squeezed and pushed out of these areas. This race to the bottom thinking really helps no-one. Society isn't equal and we can't make it so by trying to drag everyone down to the same level.

@m0therofdragons

Everyone I know with dc in private education seems to think their dc is getting a better education but unless it’s one of the top schools in not sure that’s actually the case. I don’t think 5 live lessons a day homeschooling is appropriate for a seven year old but it’s done because the school can demonstrate it’s “worth the money” rather than the best approach for the dc. But I’m in the lucky position that my daughter is in a good state school with a superb head teacher and teaching team.

@m0therofdragons

My 8 year old at private.

4 online lessons today. 14 students in her class. Fun, stimulating, laughter, competition, discussion, and a little bit of silly chatter at the end between the girls. At the end of the last one she was genuinely disappointed not a fifth.

@happilybemused

Completely agree re children's prep offering wrap around care for working parents. You could drop off from 7am and collect up to 6pm. Breakfast, snacks, clubs and help with prep all provided.

Everything was done through school so I no longer had to rush around dropping my two at swimming lessons, music lessons, cubs etc.

If I had still been working it would be a godsend.

Absolutely no charge for the wrap around care offered at my children’s private school.

And it isn’t... all of them in a hall twiddling their thumbs waiting for pick up. It’s a full snack, games, sport and additional learning support for those that have struggled on something during the day.

If state received the funding they needed and were given the resources they need to support all children then I’d be all for scrapping them. My reality was that my child was failed spectacularly ‘sorry we just don’t have the resources. We’ve moved our child to a private school and the progress and joy of learning is worth every penny. I’m bloody angry that this quality of education isn’t available to all. It is not fair. My child has a chance of reaching his potential now which was not at all true in the first four years of his education.