.. to think we should scrap private schools?

[katnyps]

How can we ever have an equal opportunities society when people with more money can pay for their children to have a better education?

I know that there are exceptions to the rule, and great teachers in publicly funded schools, but I get the impression that influential roles in society are disproportionately represented by people paid for education... or am I wrong about this too?

I believe that Finland has one of the best (internationally recognised) education system in the world and (apologies if I'm not quite right here, but broadly speaking) that it is actually illegal there to charge for education?

were switched out ( predictive text!)

but here are a few stats for powerful people who were privately educated

Bluegovan just because these people were privately educated doesn’t mean they’ll do the same for their children.
It would be interesting to have the statistics on where their children are/were at school.

That's all good in theory but the practice of those in power using the state system is just that they either had their kids in poor schools and the kids suffered ( Bernie Grant and Jonathan Miller are anecdotes I recall.) Or like the Blairs and many of their contemporaries get their offspring into highly sought after state "super schools" which seem to exist in London!

Fiona Millar seemed to get very stuck in and would be my exception that proved the rule.

In general I just don't see a mechanism whereby banning private causes state as a system to improve.

The state needs to change first.

The tax exemption is a mute point anyway. Most private schools don't make a profit, so even if they're weren't exempt, a non profit making "business" has no profits on which to pay tax!

ALL basic education (subjects taught in schools) is VAT exempt, so VAT is a mute point too as there'd be no VAT on school fees even if the private schools weren't exempt.

Despite being charities, private schools AREN'T exempt from employment related taxes/NIC etc on wages paid to their teachers, administrators, management, etc., so that's yet another mute point.

In general I just don't see a mechanism whereby banning private causes state as a system to improve.

Indeed, the rich will just send their kids abroad to private schools.

@Blackberrycream

Surely the elephant in the room is that at least part of the reason they may be better is that they have more freedom to design their curriculum and are not subject to the constant fads that infect state education. Removing them won’t fix this issue. Inequality exists and will continue to exist within the state system. Data follows the children. KS1 results predict KS2 results which then feed into GCSE predictions. Expectations of children are set at an early age and it can be difficult for children to escape these tracks as schools are measured on this progress data. In reality children develop at different paces. As a teacher, I have had to argue the case for certain children. In the days of level 6 maths, I was told I could only allow 6 children into an extra tuition group. 2 of the children I put forward we’re switched out. I argued the case as I could not look their parents in the face knowing they were being let down in this way. In reality, there were more children in this particular class capable of achieving higher levels but this data would have looked out of place. We have a winners and losers system. Private acts in part as a check and measure to the state system. Some have great facilities and funding but not all. Most are able to get better results though. The question should be why? Getting rid of them will not get rid of the issues.

I agree. Dd2 had very average SATS and was quite low in maths.

She moved to private where they streamed maths. She scraped a 7 in maths gcse but is now on target for AAA in her three humanities A levels. Her SATS results have been long forgotten.

Smart kids with decent parents will do well in most instances regardless what school they go to. Parental expectation has a much bigger impact than the state of the school - in my lived experience anyway!

@Frodont
I saw this too with my son. He was moved out of a school with shockingly low expectations mid primary. He was all level 6s by KS2. He is back in state now with similar issues of predictions lower than actual achievement. There seems to be little ambition in terms of grades to the point where in assessments he is consistently scoring above their predictions. Since his KS2 data is out of the state system they are not held accountable for progress. It feels a bit like a sausage factory and the difference in approach is very apparent.

@Andante57

but here are a few stats for powerful people who were privately educated

Bluegovan just because these people were privately educated doesn’t mean they’ll do the same for their children.
It would be interesting to have the statistics on where their children are/were at school.

Yes, it would be interesting to have that info, but, for understandable privacy reasons, it is very hard to get hold of. If private schools had stats showing a surprisingly high percentage of their parents were state educated, I imagine that organisations like the Independent Schools Council would be happily issuing press releases to let us know.

@HitchFlix

Smart kids with decent parents will do well in most instances regardless what school they go to. Parental expectation has a much bigger impact than the state of the school - in my lived experience anyway!

I agree that parents have a huge role to play in education, however we cannot underestimate the influence that a school has.

@HitchFlix

Smart kids with decent parents will do well in most instances regardless what school they go to. Parental expectation has a much bigger impact than the state of the school - in my lived experience anyway!

This is what I used to tell myself when my children were at a stage school (outstanding).

Now they’re at a private school and I realise I was trying to convince myself. The difference is enormous.

State
Not stage

Maybe the focus should be on helping the state schools get better - instead of scrapping private schools. 🤷🏻‍♀️ YABU.

@HitchFlix

Smart kids with decent parents will do well in most instances regardless what school they go to. Parental expectation has a much bigger impact than the state of the school - in my lived experience anyway!

Such a myth. My son is bright and I know he would do so much better at a private school. He may do well in state school, but not private school well. My daughter needs extra help and I know she would also so much better in a private school. I am a very engaged parent, but it's not the same. Not sure that banning private schools is the answer, but until our government doesn't send all their kids to private schools (and don't think they don't, they do) nothing will change. Why would the Tories rock that boat and invest more in state schools? Their kids will be fine and running the country soon enough to carry on the legacy. Yes, I'm cynical and bitter.

I just want to say that the private schooling = better outcomes is also a correlation, not causation thing. Many people who have the money to afford private schools, also have the connections, power and social standing to allow their offspring many more opportunities than the average person. So basically, these people would still be ahead even if they didn't have a private education.

@PumpkinPieAlibi

I just want to say that the private schooling = better outcomes is also a correlation, not causation thing. Many people who have the money to afford private schools, also have the connections, power and social standing to allow their offspring many more opportunities than the average person. So basically, these people would still be ahead even if they didn't have a private education.

Is there a study on this. Not true n my experience.

@PumpkinPieAlibi

I just want to say that the private schooling = better outcomes is also a correlation, not causation thing. Many people who have the money to afford private schools, also have the connections, power and social standing to allow their offspring many more opportunities than the average person. So basically, these people would still be ahead even if they didn't have a private education.

This is what people who haven’t been to private and don’t have children in private think.

That it’s an old boys network of connections.

It isn’t. Yes there will be the odd child that gets an internship because his father is friends with the boss.

But for the vast vast vast majority - private schooling simply represents smaller classes, amazing facilities and much more opportunity for sports, music etc

Indeed, the rich will just send their kids abroad to private schools

Some will, but not all. What about the large percentage who are day students? Some would just prefer their children to be educated in the UK. Dropping your children off at a familiar place a couple of hours' drive away is a very different decision from seeing them off on a 4 hour flight to somewhere much harder to pop over for weekends, school concerts, etc.

There would need to be a transtition period of several years or more, so students currently at private schools would be able to finish their education during that period, and maybe parents would have time to discover that moving into the state sector wasn't such an outrage after all. If it ever happens, I sincerely hope that you will all use your influence and expertise to contribute to making it a system that works for all, rather than in being hostile.

@lioncitygirl

Maybe the focus should be on helping the state schools get better - instead of scrapping private schools. 🤷🏻‍♀️ YABU.

Yes, I think we all believe that.

I remember watching a TV series a couple of years ago about primary schools with pupils hoping to go to grammars and the parents paying vast amounts for 11+ tutoring; many of the kids failed anyway. The primary schools, including head teacher, were useless, didn't prepare the children at all - it was appalling.

Our education system needs a complete overhaul. Every child has the right to be encouraged to reach their potential - the early comprehensive schools did that, there was something for everyone.

You can't blame parents for sending their children to private schools as things stand.

@LizFlowers

State schools are not permitted to get involved with 11 plus preparation in any way whatsoever

[quote Sethy38]@LizFlowers

State schools are not permitted to get involved with 11 plus preparation in any way whatsoever[/quote]
No, but they can advise parents and also stretch bright children. I have had classes with very high 11 plus successful rate ( teaching in a deprived, inner city area). Extra curricular clubs can be a good supplement too if teachers are prepared to offer them. I have run maths, debating and reading clubs.
Some teachers and schools are opposed to the 11 plus.

This is what people who haven’t been to private and don’t have children in private think. That it’s an old boys network of connections. It isn’t. Yes there will be the odd child that gets an internship because his father is friends with the boss. But for the vast vast vast majority - private schooling simply represents smaller classes, amazing facilities and much more opportunity for sports, music etc

Yes and no. I've certainly seen the old boys network in operation, both with friends whose children are at private school and freely admit that it exists, and also through my own work experience. It might not exist for everyone, and it might be small, but when it affects positions of power and influence, it's important that we acknowledge it.

Yes, I agree re facilities and class sizes, that's why I think we need an overhaul of the state system too - I'm not suggesting throwing Etonians into failing comprehensives. I think the whole system needs to ensure that all children can flourish, whatever their strengths, difficulties, backgrounds, etc. I see debates on here all the time about the failures of the state system - over-focus on exams, lack of focus on practical skills or life skills, poor SEN provision and many other things. Surely it's time for a properly thought out overhaul with wide consulation, to provide education fit for purpose in the 21st century? Definitely not just more sticking plaster reforms at the whim of whoever is education secretary (God help us if it's still Gavin Williamson).

Many people who have the money for private education are of above average intelligence, and are capable of earning enough to pay school fees out of taxed income. IME experience, the majority of parents were professionals -- doctors nearing consultant level, IT systems consultants, entrepreneurs, or lawyers, surveyors/estate agents, AF, teachers receiving discounted fees. A lot had help from grandparents, or bursaries and scholarships. The car park mostly looked like Steptoe's yard and there were far more camping holidays than ski trips.

20% of children at sixth form level are at private school I think and 8% of other children. Add on grammar schools and comp schools in posh areas and very special religious schools like the Blair's Oratory (Euan was in the year above one of my children at Bristol U thereafter doing I think the same subject although due to his connections and I am sure skill has just made £50m on his company whilst my private school lot continue to toil at the coal face of working life ) and that is a lot of children aged 16 who are in "good" schools.

Add to that genetics - bright parents tend to earn more and marry other well educated high earners and inheritance although in my case my father used his life savings to pay for his dementia care and then we had inheritance tax because he died so soon after our mother.... and it is easy to see why some children whether in private or other schools do better than others.

I'm not sure I see your point xenia. You seem to be randomly adding high achieving state school students to those from private schools, rather than seeing them as part of the solution. Surely the division is between paying for education and not paying for it? And the best state schools are what all state schools should be.

But sympathy for your private and Bristol-educated child if they're now 'toiling at the coalface' rather than getting a desirable graduate job that will lead to a satisfying and well-rewarded career. Welcome to the real world.