to be disgusted at these comments made by Lord Sumption

[DoreensEatingHerSoreen]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2021/jan/17/jonathan-sumption-cancer-patient-life-less-valuable-others

Lord Sumption today told Deborah James, who is living with stage 4 bowel cancer, that her life is less valuable than the lives of others.

As a fellow stage 4 cancer patient, I find it appalling that someone could suggest our lives are less valuable than those without cancer.
In spite of my diagnosis, I live a wonderful and fulfilling life, and intend to carry on doing so for as long as is possible.
It's terrifying to think that I may be denied access to a ventilator should I become ill with Covid, and I believe we have a collective duty to do everything we can to reduce pressure on the NHS and minimise the horrific collateral damage of Covid on those living with other illnesses and conditions.

@Cyberattack. But that statement is absolutely true for most people. Instinctively most people understand that a child or young persons life is more important/ valuable than someone who is 90. You may not think like that but most people do. Of course that doesn’t mean that we want to kill them but when difficult decisions have to be made it should absolutely be considered.

Thank you for all that you are doing Jacks11

@DenisetheMenace

Sending you love and hope. Lord Sumption is a moron.

Do you understand what a moron is ? And the link of the term to eugenics?

OP i was on a thread about DNR being 'suggested' and it's revolting.

And no one in the public who is saying we need an ongoing conversation about harm of different thing approaches. Is looking at individuals and thinking you should die :/

I understand it's very emotional.

However I also notice that there's been no comment on the articles I linked about the increase in serious child abuse/ murder.

That's not a guilt thing it's a fact.

All of the factors need to be under constant consideration. I understand why it's so polarised but it's just not an easy thing and balancing needs to be thought about.

@NiceGerbil

OP i was on a thread about DNR being 'suggested' and it's revolting.

And no one in the public who is saying we need an ongoing conversation about harm of different thing approaches. Is looking at individuals and thinking you should die :/

I understand it's very emotional.

My parents, their neighbours, our neighbours all have a DNR by their door and on their fridge.

Why is DNR revolting?

All of your neighbors have a DNR ready to go?

Crikey.

It's disgusting that a/some health authorities sent them out in a mass mailshot with no context and including to parents of children.

It's a sensitive thing that needs proper conversations and informed consent.

Look at the threads about it. The letters came out of the blue.

That's disgusting.

Like Lord Sumption, I would want to see my son and other young family members prioritised over myself for life saving treatment.
In general, I would like to think I would prioritise any young person's life ahead of my own.

Where I take issue is my life as a cancer patient being de-valued by others.

I'm not an octogenarian - I'm 35.

OH, God. This is the sad truth...at some point, medical facilities MUST triage. They simply must. And that is a hard, hard, hard truth. Battlefield facilities have known this for centuries. Thankfully, most civilian facilities seldom, if ever, face it. At some point, you have to decide to use most of very limited resources to those that you can most help. It doesn't mean that the lives of the others are "less." And you grieve over every one of those. For a long, long time.

For myself? I"ll be triaged down if it comes to it. And probably die. I hate it, but I can't resent it. I know what it costs to be forced to make those decisions.

@NiceGerbil

All of your neighbors have a DNR ready to go?

Crikey.

It's disgusting that a/some health authorities sent them out in a mass mailshot with no context and including to parents of children.

It's a sensitive thing that needs proper conversations and informed consent.

Look at the threads about it. The letters came out of the blue.

That's disgusting.

They have had them for at least 5 years. They were drawn up with a solicitor (my parents) with their LPA.

My next door neighbour is 96- they have been very clear about a DNR for a long while

This isnt a CV19 thing. DNR is something that everyone should thing about whilst they are able to do so. As part of an LPA you have to talk it through with the people you give power of attorney to0.

A 35 year old mother would be seen as young and important OP.

Both my parents are doctors. I promise you.

You're very young. Even if they didn't know you had kids. Promise.

@Sittingonabench

Most people would accept their life being more difficult (even in extremes) if it meant saving a life. That is what is being compared it is not death of a child v death of elderly as that’s not the situation. It is financial and social hardship versus death.

This. Yes it's awful that children are out of school. That people are lonely (though they can form a support bubble). That people lose jobs and suffer financial hardship.

But the acute crisis will have lasted for one year in i our lives - March 20-21. Its not forever. It's for one year (and actually quite light restrictions summer/early autumn 2020 when we were all eating out to help out and so on).

Economies recover schools reopen people get together again. I personally am happy to absorb the losses of freedom and opportunity this year given that I knew it had prevented large numbers of people losing their actual LIVES.

I think Lord Sumotion would discover his life was very valuable indeed thank you very much, were he to be fighting for it in ITU. Not least as he is a great thinker who I've had native respect for on everything he has commented on except this.

@NiceGerbil

However I also notice that there's been no comment on the articles I linked about the increase in serious child abuse/ murder.

That's not a guilt thing it's a fact.

All of the factors need to be under constant consideration. I understand why it's so polarised but it's just not an easy thing and balancing needs to be thought about.

I agree - the knock-on effects of lockdown are horrendous. We need to do more to support those that are vulnerable. I don't have the answers as to how to do this while still preventing the NHS from becoming overwhelmed. I wish I did

Hazy I was taking specifically about the mass mailshots.

It was totally out of order. Are you arguing otherwise? For people who were eg obese or had children with SN to just get that through the post?

One woman was in her 20s and overweight. She got a letter in the post say think about a DNR

That's just not ok.

@NiceGerbil

A 35 year old mother would be seen as young and important OP.

Both my parents are doctors. I promise you.

You're very young. Even if they didn't know you had kids. Promise.

Thank you

With an unprecedented situation and an NHS that was already under pressure something has to give.

I don't have have the answers and I don't envy the decision makers whether government or in hosps.

I am sorry you are so ill op I really do wish you all the best obviously and I'm so sorry that understandably what you heard this man say was very upsetting. He's not a doctor though.

35 is so young. No way would you be seen as otherwise if you go into hosp. Sadly they do have to triage but they always have tbh.

I just wish this conversation wasn't so polarised. But I understand why it is.

@NiceGerbil

Hazy I was taking specifically about the mass mailshots.

It was totally out of order. Are you arguing otherwise? For people who were eg obese or had children with SN to just get that through the post?

One woman was in her 20s and overweight. She got a letter in the post say think about a DNR

That's just not ok.

Everyone who is an adult should think about this. Not because of CV19.

I have been critically ill and hours from death.
My DH has cancer

We were both forced to think about DNR and at what point we would not want to live.

Every adult should think about this- whilst they are healthy enough and have the mental capacity to do so.

We need intelligent measured voices like his standing up and providing a different viewpoint to the simplistic stay home, save lives narrative that the government have been pushing.

No one has all the answers or a perfect solution but we need people brave enough to point out that this is not a zero cost choice that the government is making. There is real lasting suffering being caused by lockdown and children have been sidelined in the hubris of saving covid lives at the expense of everything else. That doesn’t mean that old and sick people are worthless but that lockdown is causing horrible damage to many lives. I don’t know what the alternative is but if this vaccine doesn’t work as hoped then this balance will need to be debated much wider.

@DoreensEatingHerSoreen

I can promise you hamsterchump there is nothing luxurious about worrying whether I would have access to life saving treatment due to my cancer status if I were to become seriously ill with Covid. I understand, that if a doctor had to make a choice between providing a ventilator to me, and a similarly aged person without cancer, I likely would not get it, inspite of me potentially having many years of quality life left in me yet. It's terrifying. I feel we need to do everything that we can to reduce the pressure on ICU capacity, and the medical professionals that have to make these horrendous decisions.

This is the point many of us have been making for a year now, but we keep getting shouted down because people just want to do what they want to do & don't seem to understand that 'Save the NHS' really means Save Spaces or the one not getting one could be you, or your 30 year old sibling/friend/child with cancer/diabetes/asthma or your Dad that's had a heart attack.

No apparently 1001social activities are more important and it won't happen to them anyway.

A year & people STILL don't get it!!!

Sadly Drs at some hospital are already having to make these decisions because they're used their 'surplus' they've converted wards, they've sent patients to other hospitals until they were over capacity too. They're trying to treat people in ambulances, but some have died before even getting admitted.

We are 'there' already. I think those of us who fear we may not get a bed just have to do every single thing we can to avoid getting it. Especially until the numbers are far lower, so we at least have a chance of getting treatment.

HazyJuly At the moment I would not want to sign a DNR, my cancer is stable, there's no reason to believe it won't stay that way for a long time, I have a young son.
If I become seriously unwell with Covid, I would want alll attempts made for me to be treated, and if necessary ventilated / resuscitated.

Other cancer patients in similar circumstances to me are being asked to sign DNRs as soon as they are admitted to hospital with Covid. I don't think that's fair.

I don't know why you're focussing on this hazy.

A mailshot is shit. Don't you think? Sending a letter to all vulnerable adults or children with no warning saying yeah consider DNR. During covid. Look up the threads. The letter was awful. The health authorities concerned apologised. Why are you defending this?

Also you have no idea of my circs or history.

@NiceGerbil

I don't know why you're focussing on this hazy.

A mailshot is shit. Don't you think? Sending a letter to all vulnerable adults or children with no warning saying yeah consider DNR. During covid. Look up the threads. The letter was awful. The health authorities concerned apologised. Why are you defending this?

Also you have no idea of my circs or history.

Because the post is about the comments by Lord Sumption- not about a mail shot?

I could equally ask why you are going on about a mailshot?

If you mean the shielding letters- we got 3 in our house, my DF also received one and has remained on the CEV list throughout (he is on about his 6th letter) . We researched CV19 linked to each condition. We took medical advice. We each made a decision about what we would like to happen if we reached X, Y Z point of treatment for Cv19.

Not awful at all.

Did you receive one? Why did it offend you when you got one?

Ithink is is horrendous how people feel entitled to make these value judgements on human life

@Worst

Do you realky think an ICU Doctor feels 'entitled' to make these decisions?

Or do you, you know, think they're presented with fucking hideous situations where they have to make these decisions? The can conjur up more ventilators (for example) so they have two (for this example) a slim, fit, previously healthy 20 yo or an overweight diabetic 50yo. Do they want to deny one treatment - no. Can they magic up another ventilator- no.... other than making a decision based on who is most likely to survive (not who is most worthy🙄) what do you suggest they do?

It didn't offend me, I felt for all the people who were so upset.

Look up the old threads on it. It was awful.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the ICU Doctors are entitled. I feel that the ICU Doctors are the right people to make the decisions about who gets treatment, but it's horrendous that they have to

I do not think Lord Sumption is entitled to say that cancer patients lives are less valuable than others. I understand his other comments about treatment of the very old vs the very young, but when it comes to underlying health conditions It's not so clear cut.

If relaxing lockdown measures means increased pressure on ICU - then Doctors will be having to make even more life or death decisions and I feel this has to be prevented as much as is possible.

I understand there is a horrible trade off with the safety, mental health and quality of life for those in lockdown and I don't know what the answer to this is, other than we need to do as much as we can to protect the vulnerable in lockdown.

It's a horrible catch 22 - as the mental health impacts to the loved ones of those that will die if lockdown is lifted too early is horrendous too