to be disgusted at these comments made by Lord Sumption

[DoreensEatingHerSoreen]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2021/jan/17/jonathan-sumption-cancer-patient-life-less-valuable-others

Lord Sumption today told Deborah James, who is living with stage 4 bowel cancer, that her life is less valuable than the lives of others.

As a fellow stage 4 cancer patient, I find it appalling that someone could suggest our lives are less valuable than those without cancer.
In spite of my diagnosis, I live a wonderful and fulfilling life, and intend to carry on doing so for as long as is possible.
It's terrifying to think that I may be denied access to a ventilator should I become ill with Covid, and I believe we have a collective duty to do everything we can to reduce pressure on the NHS and minimise the horrific collateral damage of Covid on those living with other illnesses and conditions.

No it’s not. My father died in his early fifties following a long illness. I would have given anything for a bit more time with him as almost anyone would. I am not precious about death. I accept it will happen to me, my family, and sometimes children die before adults. Nobody has said no one should ever die but your question appeared to be a comparison of the trauma associated and IMO there is no comparison. Lockdown doesn’t come close.

@Sittingonabench

No it’s not. My father died in his early fifties following a long illness. I would have given anything for a bit more time with him as almost anyone would. I am not precious about death. I accept it will happen to me, my family, and sometimes children die before adults. Nobody has said no one should ever die but your question appeared to be a comparison of the trauma associated and IMO there is no comparison. Lockdown doesn’t come close.

Yes it's quite young, my father was a similar age. It was difficult but this is far worse imo mainly because I don't care if things are personally hard for me. The absolute worse thing for me is to see my dc struggling.

formerbabe you make the point a few times that it is preferable to lose your parents than to die before your parents. If the NHS becomes overwhelmed, then I imagine lots of CEV people would sadly die leaving their parents to grieve.
Again - the knock-on menta health impact to the loved ones of the CEV.

@formerbabe go and get some help for your children if you are that concerned about them. As pp said, they were in school a matter of weeks ago. Are they not having some form of home school now? Can you not take them out once a day, can you try and make the best out of this situation rather than wallow in it?

[quote Perfect28]@formerbabe go and get some help for your children if you are that concerned about them. As pp said, they were in school a matter of weeks ago. Are they not having some form of home school now? Can you not take them out once a day, can you try and make the best out of this situation rather than wallow in it?[/quote]
I'm not wallowing in it. I'm venting on here but I'm the very picture of optimism in front of my dc. Yes I take them out not many places to go but oh well...another walk.

But here's the thing...my dc don't need psychological help necessarily. They need to be able to attend school, play with other kids, do sport.

Well they can't have that for now, you'll have to just get over that won't you. It won't be forever.

@Perfect28 you are just down right rude. Throwing insults and commenting on people's parenting. I hope you feel good about yourself tonight .. I declare you the COVID Queen.

To the OP I can imagine that was not nice for you to hear last night. I applaud you for coming back and giving balanced and rational replies because I can't imagine how you must feel just now.

@formerbabe never mind that poster above. Sounds like your doing a great job as a mum and just doing your best in this situation.

My view on this debate I think it's good we are finally talking about both sides. Whatever side you are on I think we are all just hoping to make it out of this situation the best way we can.

@lockdownsucksballs

Thank you for your kind comment

I don’t think telling someone who is sad and worried for their children to ‘get over it’ is going to help, to be honest.

Neither do I see it judging their parenting for Christ's sake. The idea that we would let people die so children can be a bit happier and see their friends though, seriously... I don't think that's a view I should have to tiptoe around. It's selfish.

God there's some nasty brutal posters on this thread. Let's hope you never find yourself in a situation where your survival depends on someone else seeing your life as valuable. nasty pieces of work

Ok @Perfect28 but can't you see your view is selfish as well? Just to give an example of the other side of the coin

I'm mid thirties built a business in my 20's and it's been closed since 18 March 2020. Some government help so that's fine. Shitty but fine. Uni education all online with 2 kids at home with the exception of august - December. Partners business doing well so financially we are fine. Kids meh bored but ok. My friendship group 4 redundancies and 1 suicide because they are part of the excluded group.

Doubtful my business will return and 3/4 of those redundancies still unemployed.

10 months we have done this. My parents in their 50's so still working. Granny shielding (caught covid at a hospital appointment) managed ok. Scary time as a family.

Can you not see that our dear friend who killed himself is dead and isn't coming back? How am I selfish to say well actually maybe we need to look at the harm we are doing with lockdown here?

Insult all you like but my argument is as valid as yours but there is no need to be rude about it.

Even before I had my own DC, I've always considered children to be the most important people in society.

That's an awful comment to say to anybody.

@lockdownsucksballs

I'm sorry to hear about your friend.
Why are you so convinced that it is the fault of lockdown though? Perhaps it put extra pressure on but suicide is the biggest cause of death of men under 50. There is no evidence that suicides have increased in lockdown. This data may well come out in time and it may also be shown to have made no difference.

We simply cannot form arguments on the basis of suspicion, no matter how emotive.
You haven't given me an argument, you've given me your situation.

@Perfect28 I know it's lockdown because this is the life I'm living. We are a bunch of 30 somethings who have all up until 2020 been enjoying careers and having families, get togethers, engagements buying houses. All that stuff stopped because of lockdown. I will add we all willingly complied and done the right thing but this far in it really is ok that we are starting to say well hang on we need to find a balance. That doesn't make me selfish it makes me human.

@Perfect28 I don't need to give you an argument. It's a discussion board. Your saying we should all think about the greater good indefinitely as your argument I'm saying well actually no that is not the case because this is different for everyone and it's ok that people express that without being called selfish, or not caring about their kids mental health or even morons for god sake.

I'm simply saying that preserving your pre-lockdown life is not worth the trade off of more deaths. our lives will eventually return, are we really so selfish and short sighted as a society that we are unwilling to sacrifice some freedoms to save lives. It boggles my mind.

Of course I'm also missing my life. Do I want to be pregnant in a pandemic? No. Of course not. Do I miss my mum, my friends, my job? Yes. But I'm able to see we are where we are as an emergency measure to save lives. If the government hadn't cocked up their response so badly, and more people complied with the rules and weren't so intent on bending them 'just a little and just this once', then maybe we wouldn't be here.
But we are.

It's still better than the alternative- willingly allowing the NHS to be completely swamped.

I am coming from a very minority viewpoint, in that my ds (10) is cev

...having to redo his hospital passport on the instructions of his learning disability nurse, back in April, to include information about his human rights in the time of Covid, was very hard. Hearing 'anti lockdown' people proposing focused protection, whilst never considering people like ds is very hard. Listening to people discuss the value of a person's life when it comes to stretched medical care, as a point of discussion on chat shows and social media, is very hard. Knowing that the value this society places on people with Learning Disabilities is pretty low, leading to avoidable deaths and poor health outcomes even pre Covid, is very hard. Hearing the words, '....they did however have underlying conditions' is very hard. Hearing the fear in the voice of my friend (whose child has a life limiting condition) when we are discussing how we just have to make sure our children don't end up in hospital this year, is very hard. Knowing a vaccine isn't on the horizon to protect him (yet...hopefully), is very hard.

I know lockdown is hard, I've worked with vulnerable families, I have left my job, and seen friends lose theirs, I know people are struggling. Ds has been shielding for most of the year since last March, he will miss most of his last year at primary school and his transition to secondary. I'm furious that lockdowns were necessary, because the government failed to get a decent test, track and trace system in place, that they have fucked up continuously along the way...meaning that now, with new variants and cases, hospitalisation and deaths as high as they are, that lockdown is necessary.
I know it is very hard, all of it.

has been shielding for most of the time since March. Selfishly I want the world to get back to normal for him, because this is his last year at primary, it is going to be an incredibly difficult transition to secondary

...not sure where that last repeat came from (as if I hadn't rambled on long enough anyway!)

That sounds really hard Hazey

My DS is 11 so just gone into secondary, we had an incredibly stressful time with him missing most of the last two terms of primary, his taster week required to gain admission to a special secondary was also cancelled, meaning a delayed start to yr 7 with him not joining until after Oct half term ... and now off again (remote learning this time but so tricky with his literacy problems)
It's just crap for them isn't it?
Wishing you and him the very best transition year you can manage, and I hope you all remain safe and well!

I doubt and that the OP will ever be in a situation where there is a discussion about her life v someone else's and I think value is the wrong word but ultimately if there was such a situation medics have to make decisions on the basis of facts. It would be logical to presume someone with stage 4 cancer had a more limited lifespan than someone of a similar age without. Therefore it would be a logical choice to save the cancer free one.

@gottakeeponmovin

I doubt and that the OP will ever be in a situation where there is a discussion about her life v someone else's and I think value is the wrong word but ultimately if there was such a situation medics have to make decisions on the basis of facts. It would be logical to presume someone with stage 4 cancer had a more limited lifespan than someone of a similar age without. Therefore it would be a logical choice to save the cancer free one.

Alright Spock @gottakeeponmovin the thing is, we are in a situation where there is a discussion about her life v someone else's - her life, and the lives of all the people who are considered 'the vulnerable'...I've never seen more public discussion about the value of people's lives and whose lives are being 'sacrificed' and to what end. These are discussion that may have occurred in medical circles and ethics classes, but are now all over social media and chat shows. Yes, medics have to make decisions on the basis of facts....medics, with all the facts and based on an intense balance of factors, not talking heads on chat shows and randoms on the internet.

You don't have to be a medic, rocket scientist or Spock to work out what happens if you have one bed and two people and one of them has cancer

@gottakeeponmovin

You don't have to be a medic, rocket scientist or Spock to work out what happens if you have one bed and two people and one of them has cancer

You obviously can't work it out though.