to be disgusted at these comments made by Lord Sumption

[DoreensEatingHerSoreen]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2021/jan/17/jonathan-sumption-cancer-patient-life-less-valuable-others

Lord Sumption today told Deborah James, who is living with stage 4 bowel cancer, that her life is less valuable than the lives of others.

As a fellow stage 4 cancer patient, I find it appalling that someone could suggest our lives are less valuable than those without cancer.
In spite of my diagnosis, I live a wonderful and fulfilling life, and intend to carry on doing so for as long as is possible.
It's terrifying to think that I may be denied access to a ventilator should I become ill with Covid, and I believe we have a collective duty to do everything we can to reduce pressure on the NHS and minimise the horrific collateral damage of Covid on those living with other illnesses and conditions.

@formerbabe

I'm sure losing your parents wasn't much easier than lockdown

Well yes but only because I was a child in one case and still living at home and dependent.

I have no idea what it would be like if I was an adult... probably far easier.

But like I said, losing your parents is normal and it's better to experience that than for the roles to be reversed.

I think the great majority of people would prefer lockdown to losing their parents even as an adult.

I'd like to know the percentage of "vulnerable" in other European countries for comparison

I'd also be interested to know this - though of course Europe's a big place and nations will no doubt have their own ways of calculating the % which may differ from ours

I think the great majority of people would prefer lockdown to losing their parents even as an adult

Why? Losing your parents is normal.

Would you prefer to die before them because that's the only other option I'm afraid?

Applying statistical observations to judge individual circumstances is discriminatory

Sorry but I had to smile at this ... I'm not disagreeing, but if we applied the same principle to every Covid thread on here there'd be none left

@gottakeeponmovin

I think we have to be realistic. If there is a choice between a stage 4 cancer patient with a limited lifespan and a person who is healthy and fit then the choice is obvious. Same with a 70 year old and a child. It's not about valuing life it's about making practical decisions if they need to be made

If its not about valuing life, then why did Lord Sumption say 'I didn't say your life wasn't valuable, I said it was less valuable'?

Yes. My view is that the government’s role should be to inform people of the risks, bolster the NHS as far as possible, and then let people make their own choices.

But if you are vulnerable what 'choice' do you have if the government aren't going to do anything but say 'these are the risks, and let's be honest if the NHS gets overwhelmed you're fucked, but you're on your own, soz!'

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Applying statistical observations to judge individual circumstances is discriminatory

Sorry but I had to smile at this ... I'm not disagreeing, but if we applied the same principle to every Covid thread on here there'd be none left

I'm not sure that I would mind there being no Covid threads tbh.

My point is that population scale metrics should be used to make population scale decisions, not individual ones. And they should always be tested to seen if they are discriminatory in outcome before being rolled out. I mean the exam algorithm was a classic case in point for that.

untermenschen

@Fr0thandBubble

You know that all of those 89,000 deaths fit into the
'Deaths within 28 days of a positive test' metric right.

@elaganz
I agree completely. The government should stop trying to appease such views and just do the right thing, promptly. Unfortunately for us as a country the Conservatives are in power, and Conservatives (similarly to Sumption and fr0th) are individualist libertarians.

@chomalungma

What about a septuagenarian? If someone asked me to choose between my 70 yo mum being saved or an unknown child, I would pick my mum hands down

You aren't the one doing the choosing though.

Actually @chomalungma that poster said it ‘ if you as an individual’ had to choose. And I am an individual who would choose my mum over a strange child.

@formerbabe

I think the great majority of people would prefer lockdown to losing their parents even as an adult

Why? Losing your parents is normal.

Would you prefer to die before them because that's the only other option I'm afraid?

The fact you need to ask why most people would prefer lockdown to losing their parents says a lot about you.

Your response told me nothing @belladonna12 in response to my comment. Most people will be lucky to lose their parents...i mean it's sad but it's better than dying before them. I'm sure most people wouldn't want to live in lockdown forever in order to escape the inevitable death of their parents.

[quote Perfect28]@formerbabe Not believing emotional hyperbole without evidence... How terrible of me.

Did you see the number of excess deaths last year? We aren't just talking people dying, we are talking about many thousands of people dying before they would otherwise have died.

The logical conclusion of not caring about death as 'people die anyway' could be used to justify murder.[/quote]
It is estimated that 26,000 plus, of those excess deaths were non-covid related. And that is before the cancer deaths from lack of treatment kicks in.

There was absolutely no need for cancer treatments to stop to the extent they did last year.

I can’t see how anyone can argue otherwise. It was panic and hysteria.

@formerbabe

Your response told me nothing *@belladonna12* in response to my comment. Most people will be lucky to lose their parents...i mean it's sad but it's better than dying before them. I'm sure most people wouldn't want to live in lockdown forever in order to escape the inevitable death of their parents.

My point is that a year in which my parents died would be a worse for me than a year of lockdown. I'm sure most people would say the same.

My point is that a year in which my parents died would be a worse for me than a year of lockdown. I'm sure most people would say the same

One year? Two years? Ten years?

@formerbabe

My point is that a year in which my parents died would be a worse for me than a year of lockdown. I'm sure most people would say the same

One year? Two years? Ten years?

We haven't had two years or 10 years of lockdown so that question is irrelevant. We have only had a few months of lockdown. It hasn't been a worse experience for me than losing my parents would be. I'm sure that's true for most people.

[quote Perfect28]@GreenlandTheMovie

The only reason we have had to have lockdowns in this country is because of the number of people who would not follow sensible health advice for the benefit of all. We have a distinctly selfish society. If you consider other countries who have done far better without the need for lockdowns it's because their societies are far less individualistic. Kind of ironic that it's the very people that decry lockdowns that make them necessary in the first place.[/quote]
Well, in that case, many of us would be better off moving to these Elyisna lands, where everyone is perfectly obedient, where this is no Covid. Such as Japan. But wait, Japan recently declared a state of emergency due to covid.

What about other countries with less accurate recording of Covid cases?

Are you saying that the British, uniquely (well, ok along with Cypriots) are so incapable that they need an internal travel ban. All that stopping of women going for socially isolated walks around reservoirs is what is needed to get covid under control?

You really do have to factor non-compliance into lockdowns, unless going in for mass breaches of the ECHR. But breaches of basic freedoms correlate far more closely with lower life expectancy and peaks in deaths than do viruses - they are much more dangerous. We have evidence to prove that. We don't have evidence to prove that lockdowns save many lives at all. We just have politicians telling us that, because they know it will help them remain electable.

It hasn't been a worse experience for me than losing my parents would be. I'm sure that's true for most people

Well then I suggest a lot of people need to grow up and start being realistic because like I said losing your parents is a pretty normal occurence and most people will experience it. You surely dont believe people live forever?!

@formerbabe

It hasn't been a worse experience for me than losing my parents would be. I'm sure that's true for most people

Well then I suggest a lot of people need to grow up and start being realistic because like I said losing your parents is a pretty normal occurence and most people will experience it. You surely dont believe people live forever?!

So you think that people need to grow up for feeling that losing their parents would be a worse experience than being in lockdown for a few months? I think that says it all really..

My point is that a year in which my parents died would be a worse for me than a year of lockdown. I'm sure most people would say the same

I would not, and neither would anyone I know who has lost both parents.
And yet again, there has not been a year of lockdown, stop dramatising. Your kid was at school a matter of weeks ago, for months.

@Belladonna12 completely agree! And given formerbabe has experienced it I am surprised by her attitude. Perhaps they have drowned out the feelings associated with the death but I remember the abject pain and total desperation associated with it. If you had asked me then would I do 10 years of this to have my father back the answer would have been an unequivocal yes. Without pause.

@formerbabe

It hasn't been a worse experience for me than losing my parents would be. I'm sure that's true for most people

Well then I suggest a lot of people need to grow up and start being realistic because like I said losing your parents is a pretty normal occurence and most people will experience it. You surely dont believe people live forever?!

I honestly think that some people do. I saw an interview given by the son of a 93 year old man who had died from Covid, which he had contracted whilst in hospital recovering from cardiac surgery. "He had years left in him" the son said. "Great tragedy for the family". The man was 93! He had already lived 13 years longer than average life expectancy!

Life expectancy in Britain has reduced by nearly a year since last March. Thats not due to Covid, since there haven't been that many deaths and the average age of death is higher than average life expectancy. So that tells us that people are dying of other things younger than usual. The idiotic decision to shut down much of the NHS has to be investigated. Did any other country do this? Who was responsible for it?

And then theres deaths from mental health causes due to lonliness.

And we don't even know what will the result of all this lack of socialising and development of social skills in young people and children in the long term. As I said before, its a massive social experiment.

@gottakeeponmovin

I think we have to be realistic. If there is a choice between a stage 4 cancer patient with a limited lifespan and a person who is healthy and fit then the choice is obvious. Same with a 70 year old and a child. It's not about valuing life it's about making practical decisions if they need to be made

But it's often not as clear cut as that, stage 4 cancer patients can live a long time! It's often impossible to say how limited their lifespan truly is. I've spoken with people on my particular treatment regime who were initially told they had no more than two years, and are still here, going strong 15 years later, and these cases are becoming less exceptional.

My main point remains however, that we should be doing our utmost to prevent vulnerable people and thier medial teams from ending up in this impossible position by preventing the NHS from becoming overwhelmed.

I don't overlook the grave consequences of lockdown, and I wish I had solutions.

[quote Sittingonabench]@Belladonna12 completely agree! And given formerbabe has experienced it I am surprised by her attitude. Perhaps they have drowned out the feelings associated with the death but I remember the abject pain and total desperation associated with it. If you had asked me then would I do 10 years of this to have my father back the answer would have been an unequivocal yes. Without pause.[/quote]
I'm don't want to stamp on your sadness at all but genuine question, would you have preferred for your father to have outlived you? Because that's the only other thing that could have happened I'm afraid.

That question is for @Sittingonabench