to be disgusted at these comments made by Lord Sumption

[DoreensEatingHerSoreen]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2021/jan/17/jonathan-sumption-cancer-patient-life-less-valuable-others

Lord Sumption today told Deborah James, who is living with stage 4 bowel cancer, that her life is less valuable than the lives of others.

As a fellow stage 4 cancer patient, I find it appalling that someone could suggest our lives are less valuable than those without cancer.
In spite of my diagnosis, I live a wonderful and fulfilling life, and intend to carry on doing so for as long as is possible.
It's terrifying to think that I may be denied access to a ventilator should I become ill with Covid, and I believe we have a collective duty to do everything we can to reduce pressure on the NHS and minimise the horrific collateral damage of Covid on those living with other illnesses and conditions.

[quote formerbabe]@bobbojobbo

People died before covid... people die every day of many things. I don't see it as such an unusual event it warrants this level of absolute hysteria.[/quote]
I've had to spend a lot of time over the last couple of years coming to terms with my own mortality and accepting the inevitability of my death.
Logically I know that I was always going to die, but in terms of impact to mental health it's so much harder when faving an incurable diagnosis.

I accept that when my time comes, it comes, be it cancer, Covid or anything else. However that does not make it any less frightening to think that I could be taken ill with something I could potentially fully recover from with the right intervention, but be denied that intervention because of my medical status. This is why I support the lockdown.

I know it comes at a great cost, my son's mental health will certainly be suffering from being in lockdown, but he would suffer so much more if I were to die while he is still young, as would the loved ones of countless other vulnerable people who would be put at additional risk if restrictions were eased too soon.

*facing

my son's mental health will certainly be suffering from being in lockdown, but he would suffer so much more if I were to die while he is still young

Yes I can see that from your ds point of view. From my point of view, with the greatest of respect because I wish you no harm, if something happened to you, my dc would be entirely unaffected hence why I resent their metal health taking a bashing to protect people I don't know.

Now, can you see why that is wildly different from an individual deciding 'your life has less value'. Or are you going to continue to be ignorant

You are the one who brought up eugenics - which is distasteful.

I am sure you know what eugenics is - and the history of it.

Looking at the bigger picture, the health economics, is not eugenics.

Yes I can see that from your ds point of view. From my point of view, with the greatest of respect because I wish you no harm, if something happened to you, my dc would be entirely unaffected hence why I resent their metal health taking a bashing to protect people I don't know.

But if that's the case, then why should anyone care about your children's mental health?

And how does that fit with trying to make policy at a national level?

@perfect28. I'm not saying that suicide rates are higher necessarily due to covid...they probably are but I was merely making the point to @choli that the mental health of young people isn't a fucking joke.

People died before covid... people die every day of many things. I don't see it as such an unusual event it warrants this level of absolute hysteria

Death is an unusual event to every single person...its not something they do more than once.
Preventable deaths are what we are talking about. Someone with terminal cancer is going to die, yes, but they might have a year to spend with their family...and now because of the pandemic they might die next week instead.
IF that was you, or your partner, or your child or your mother you wouldn;'t be sitting there with a shrug saying "never mind, death isn't unusual, is it? Its not worth getting upset about, death happens to everyone"

@thecatsthecats

I'm surprised that so few people think that it's valid to discuss this. We did it as an exercise in secondary school, and for interviews:

texags.com/forums/15/topics/1014375

Interesting note on the exercise above - I've seen a dozen groups do this exercise and the same four people are always agreed on. Not that everyone thinks that's the correct priority, but it's the only four a group will agree with. (side note, I tend to discount for employment people who shut down and won't discuss the issue, because if they can't detach enough to take part then they're unlikely to cut it in work debate).

I personally think it's a bit of a mental flex to count lives as unitary - I.e. A life is a life - when we have a subunit of life too - years lived. We don't say that everyone who is paid by an employer has the same amount of money.

I have to say YABU OP, on the grounds that refusing to even discuss the ethics of death doesn't actively help anyone, and blocks the opportunity to debate euthanasia. The fact that I could hold my beautiful, suffering cat in my arms and gently and painlessly say goodbye was a privilege and it is a scandal that my grandmother spent years suffering severe dementia without the same opportunity.

Happy to discuss it!

I think it can be discussed without telling someone their life is less valuable.

Completely agree around the way the elderly are sometimes treated when dying. As a society I think we have some huge taboos around death that we should rethink

The people miminising the impact on children should put away their #bekind t-shirts immediately!

I come back to the point that often adults in this situation are projecting that they are fine so their children will be too.

What they fail to address is the natural progression of child development and young adult growth. We are absolutely messing up and dicing with child development. They are not adults.

A pp laughing at a child not being able to play with friends for 2 months is a perfect example of this. An ADULT is totally fine to not play with their friends for 2 months. A child, not so much. However much you want to insist that children are doing this for the 'greater good' I can guarantee you that a young child gives no shits about the greater good and all they care about is interacting with their peers. That is where they get their development. And you can't just expect children's development to 'catch up' because it is not necessarily the case - there is a critical period of development and that is it.

I personally believe children should be at school now, today. The sacrifice they are being forced to take and the risks that we are taking with their futures (mental, physical and economic) is not something I would be comfortable saying is reasonable.

From my point of view, with the greatest of respect because I wish you no harm, if something happened to you, my dc would be entirely unaffected hence why I resent their metal health taking a bashing to protect people I don't know

And your dc's mental health has no effect on anyone else, so why should we care? If you don't care about anyone but yourself and your children,. why should anyone care about you?

@bobbojobbo

Your arguments are so simplistic is laughable.

I was sad personally when my grandparents died in their eighties but it was entirely expected. I'm not so dense I assumed they'd live forever. It was an absolute tragedy when my cousin died at age 20. Quite different situations

@bobbojobbo

From my point of view, with the greatest of respect because I wish you no harm, if something happened to you, my dc would be entirely unaffected hence why I resent their metal health taking a bashing to protect people I don't know

And your dc's mental health has no effect on anyone else, so why should we care? If you don't care about anyone but yourself and your children,. why should anyone care about you?

I don't think they should but I don't think they should find it fucking funny.

I don't remember taking the piss out of the idea of people dying.

@HerculesMuligan

I completely agree with the gist of what he said, though maybe he explained it awkwardly. It seems to me a weird type of virtue signalling to refuse to see that the death of a 10 year old is inherently more tragic than the death of a 90 year old.

Growing old is a privilege, one that is denied to a lot of people. To pretend that the death of someone who has lived 10+ years beyond the life expectancy of one of the richest countries in the world is equally tragic to the death of a child seems a wilful form of ignorance to me.

And yes, it may be unpalatable to some, which is why you’re unlikely to hear a politician saying this outright for example, but that doesn’t make it less true.

I agree with you - the death of a 10 year old would absolutely be more tragic than the death of a 90 year old. I don't disagree with LS's points on this.

What I do disagree with is the inference that my death from Covid would be less tragic that that of someone of similar age, similar responsibilities etc, but without cancer.

@hamstersarse

The people miminising the impact on children should put away their #bekind t-shirts immediately!

I come back to the point that often adults in this situation are projecting that they are fine so their children will be too.

What they fail to address is the natural progression of child development and young adult growth. We are absolutely messing up and dicing with child development. They are not adults.

A pp laughing at a child not being able to play with friends for 2 months is a perfect example of this. An ADULT is totally fine to not play with their friends for 2 months. A child, not so much. However much you want to insist that children are doing this for the 'greater good' I can guarantee you that a young child gives no shits about the greater good and all they care about is interacting with their peers. That is where they get their development. And you can't just expect children's development to 'catch up' because it is not necessarily the case - there is a critical period of development and that is it.

I personally believe children should be at school now, today. The sacrifice they are being forced to take and the risks that we are taking with their futures (mental, physical and economic) is not something I would be comfortable saying is reasonable.

I entirely agree with all this and think the dismissal of the effect of lockdown on children has been appalling. My child’s mental health absolutely is suffering.

However I still don’t think it’s acceptable to tell a 39 year old woman to her face that her life is less valuable because she has terminal cancer. You can’t apply rarified ethical arguments about whose life to save when you’re addressing a real person about her real situation.

I think it's also the fact that he said her life is less valuable, purely on the basis that she has Stage 4 Cancer.

'The old and the sick...' well, what is 'sick'?

Deborah James has had Stage 4 Bowel Cancer since 2016. During that time she has had some absolutely cutting edge treatments, some on the NHS, some not, has had multiple major operations, has been in hospital week in week out etc etc.

She has also helped to start and run an award winning BBC podcast, written a book, make many TV appearances, raise shit loads of money and awareness for cancer charities, run a virtual marathon this year, and constantly post on Instagram! Before Covid she was always galavanting around London going from this podcast recording to that fundraising event. In fact, I know several cancer peeps who have unfollowed her because her life is too unrelatable!

But there are thousands like Deborah. Maybe not with the seemingly glam lifestyle, but working, contributing to society, raising kids, raising money, just living their bloody lives the best they can. They just happen to have incurable cancer.

So I will ask again: what is 'sick'? And how does that make your life less valuable?

If you could only save one life and it wasnt a relative wouldnt we all save the life of a child than someone who is 80 ? It doesnt mean that the 80 year old is less valued, it is the reality they are likely to be nearer the end of their life with or without intervention.
When we look at cancer treatments is there not a cost benefit analysis carried out before they are approved. So more likley to approve a treatment that would give more people less life years than one person more life years. These calculations are never based on known individuals. If we all valued life so equally, wouldnt we give up our homes and some of our income to those with less ?

What I do disagree with is the inference that my death from Covid would be less tragic that that of someone of similar age, similar responsibilities etc, but without cancer.

Yes, this is it isn't it.

@UrsulaVdL

www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4352 would suggest there is an increase in suicide. And the domestic violence harms have been pretty well reported worldwide.

I do think the other factors have relevance and I am not saying “this is definitely true”, and I agree with all the other points you made regarding funding etc. I am also conscious that not everyone who draws the link between economic recession and suicide is doing it for the benefit of others so much as protecting their own profits!
But I am quite happy to state that there will be a rise in cancer deaths over the next few years among people whose access to diagnosis and treatment was delayed due to COVID.

Not withstanding all of that, I don’t for a second think this is easy to resolve. And I note that OP has offered nothing in terms of a resolution. She has said she doesn’t think that she would fight for an ITU space, but my guess is that when she thinks about telling her husband/children/parents that she plans to offer her treatment slot to another person she might find her Will-To-Live isn’t so easy to quench. I might be altruistic for my own kids benefit, but would I be a heroine for someone else? Unlikely.

Which is why I said thank goodness the decision doesn't lie with me - it would be too hard. In principle I do not value my life over someone else's, but I'd find it incredibly difficult not to do everything in my power to stay around for my son. All I can do is try to avoid the situation as best I can, through adhering to the regulations.

What I do disagree with is the inference that my death from Covid would be less tragic that that of someone of similar age, similar responsibilities etc, but without cancer.

I agree. I think that is what I find objectionable.

What I do disagree with is the inference that my death from Covid would be less tragic that that of someone of similar age, similar responsibilities etc, but without cancer.

I do mean this with respect.

I think that is your own interpretation of what is being said. I am presuming you are of a similar age to me and I have been devastated when a friend died of cancer who is my age. But what covid means is not that I think it is less tragic, just that it has some higher level of inevitability to it. Covid is really cruel in that it seems to pick out vulnerabilities and illness and capitalises on them. I would not see the death as less tragic. At all. But covid decided that it would take advantage and there is not a lot anyone can do about how this virus works. So not less tragic, but these are the facts we have to live with?

It is the same as other diseases and conditions - Sickle Cell for black people, Rhett's Syndrome for girls, for example. These conditions target some people only.

None are less tragic, but become more uncontrollable because of the nature of who the ideal host is for the illness.

@bobbojobbo

And how long would you be happy for your DC to live in lockdown for? Days, weeks, months, years? Where's your limit to save grannies life?

My child’s mental health absolutely is suffering

@bookworm14. Just do what @bobbojobbo is doing...teach them to be resilient and empathetic

I'm sorry that his comments have upset you, OP. I've listened to that clip and find that for me, the comments here can generally be far more upsetting, more so as it's quite clear that some posters intentionally post to wound.

For myself, I'm hoping that if there is something positive about Covid, it will open up the possibilities of 'right to die'. Afterall, if we're able to place such arbitrary value on people's lives when it suits us to do so, it should also be possible for us to make RTD a choice for the people affected.

@formerbabe

My child’s mental health absolutely is suffering

@bookworm14. Just do what @bobbojobbo is doing...teach them to be resilient and empathetic

Of course, hamstersarse! If only I’d taught my five-year-old only child to be more resilient, it wouldn’t matter that she’s not legally allowed to meet a single other child in person! If she’s lonely that’s just a moral failing on her and my part!